Choosing your sexuality

[Rachael]

Earlier this evening, I went downstairs to get a drink.  The front desk RA was talking to another resident.  The resident was talking about how she'd had so much trouble with men, she had started dating women.

Now, the typical response to this would be, "Okay, she's bisexual."  But for a while, I've been wondering if some people really do choose their sexuality.

I've noticed that people who claim they "chose" to be gay are often shunned by the gay community.  I myself used to find the idea horrifying.  Why would anyone choose to be different?  What a terrible idea!

But if homosexuality were a choice--at least for some people--would that really be such a terrible thing?  Would that make it sinful?

The truth is, human sexuality is incredibly flexible.  I can think of at least one situation where I could "become" a lesbian.  If I were stuck somewhere with a strictly female population, and knew there was no hope of seeing another man for a very long time, if ever, I would eventually begin to desire other women.  I would not choose to be with a woman simply to sate my sexual desire.  I would love her.

Of course, in that case, I wouldn't so much "choose" to be a lesbian as "become" one out of necessity.  But haven't we all trained ourselves to like something?  It's not something that happens overnight.  We don't just wake up one day and say, "I think I'll like hot dogs instead of hamburgers from now on."

People don't choose to be gay in the same way that they choose to wear a t-shirt.  But I do think that, for whatever reason, some do through a conscious process of changing their sexual orientation.  If they do that, and say, "I'm not bisexual.  I'm gay, and I chose to be this way," then who are we to contradict them?

I'm curious to know other people's thoughts on this.

[Im1ru1]

You know...this is really a great subject, I think, because it brings up the difference between sexuality and sexual orientation.  In the instances you describe, it seems that the sexual orientation of the woman at the dorms (or you in an isolation situation) would be heterosexual, whereas the sexuality in those situations would be at least bisexual.  I have never been one who thinks that every guy who has ever tried something with another guy is gay, nor do I believe that because a man had sex with a woman before he came out it makes him straight or bisexual. 
Human sexuality may be incredibly flexible, but I believe that our sexual orientation...the deep innate feelings for someone of the same or opposite sex that we feel...is exactly the opposite, it's fixed and unchangeable.  I know...some will argue that the fact that there's bisexuals negates this theory, but I think that it instead strengthens the argument.  In a world where there's black and white, there must exist grey...

Herman

[Rachael]

I don't really think anything in people is fixed and unchangeable.  Everyone says I'm a really nice and happy person, but had I grown up under very different circumstances I could be mean and miserable.

Of course, sexual orientation is probably in our DNA, but how much of it is in our DNA?  How much of personality is in our DNA?  Maybe in our DNA there is a certain propensity towards a specific sex, but we can choose whether or not to "steer" that propensity in a different direction.  It's not easy, of course.  It's like, when someone undergoes a great change, like moving from San Francisco, California to some little nowhere town in the middle of Kansas.  Now, that person has a choice.  They can continue to long for California and be miserable in Kansas, or they can learn to love Kansas and live an enjoyable life there.

Of course, some people are so strongly San Franciscans "at heart" that they couldn't imagine living anywhere else--just like most people are so strongly heterosexual or homosexual that they could never be with another person.   

But if someone says "I used to love San Francisco, but now I love Brainerd, Kansas (yes, I kid you not, that's an actual town) and couldn't imagine living anywhere else," we don't have a problem with that.  We don't think there's anything weird about someone saying "I used to be a Christian, but now I'm Jewish.  I could never go back to Christianity."  But if someone says, "I used to be gay, and now I'm straight," people don't just think that's strange--they brush aside what that person says, as if they don't know what they're talking about (or, if they're a fundamentalist, they'll pounce on it and say, "See?  Homosexuality IS a choice!").

I'm not trying to argue that sexuality is "just" a choice.  I think it's a combination of "nature" and "nurture."  According to the APA, "Most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors."  If it does change--and it usually doesn't--it's over a long period of time.

I do disagree with the idea that all homosexuals choose their sexuality.  In fact, I think most don't.  But I am no longer going to contradict someone who says "I chose to be homosexual" or even someone who says "I chose to be heterosexual" (although I will secretly doubt them if they became that way from one of those Christian "ex-gay" programs).

I'm not even sure that anyone can choose their sexuality.  I do, however, think it is definitely possible.

But aside from whether or not it's actually the case, I want to ask something more.

What would the implications be if it were proven that homosexuality was a choice?

One reason why I think this is such a difficult issue is that, at this moment in time, homosexuals are trying to gain acceptance by saying homosexuality is not a choice.  Some even go so far as to say that if they could be straight, they would.

But let's look at the bigger picture.  Many people against gay rights agree that homosexual orientation is not a choice.  However, they believe that the act of having sexual relations with someone of the same sex is sinful.  They point to people with alcoholism in their family who choose not to drink, or people with psychotic tendencies who choose not to kill.

I think we can all agree that homosexual behavior is a choice.  And really, choice is what it's all about.  Homosexuals and bisexuals are not fighting for the right to "be" gay.  They are fighting for the right to have equal marriages, equal access to employment, etc.  They are fighting for acceptance in spite of their choice of sexual partners.

So, while it's important to know what causes sexual orientation for the sake of science and sociology, I think as far as human rights are concerned, it shouldn't matter what "makes" people gay or lesbian or bisexual.  I don't think people who say they are "queer by choice" ought to be shunned by the gay community.  A house divided cannot stand.

I think we ought to live the debating up to the scientists and do our part to push for gay rights.

(When I say "we," I mean everyone fighting for gay rights, not just the GLBT community.)

[Oni]

(When I say "we," I mean everyone fighting for gay rights, not just the GLBT community.)

I like that statement you made there Rachael, but really it's not every bodies fight. Maybe we should fight for Equal rights for all, not  just rights for a specific group. .... But that's  a whole other topic I supose..

Anyway...I have been thinking and thinking and thinking....ok truthfull my brain stoped thinking after I said anyway. But back on topic, I have been trying to figure out an interesting response to your topic and questions.

We will start with this question first, then go back to the topic that was started and the thoughts that went through my brain when I read your topic.

What would the implications be if it were proven that homosexuality was a choice?

I think all the nut jobs out there would take that ammo and run with it and use it (like they have been trying to do) as a stake to drive into the community and try and force there views on the world.

Now I may insult some people by what I am about to say, especially if you are one of the people I am talking about....umm oh well...any way here I go.
There once was a man from Nantucket who's....wait wrong rant....

A fad is something that is very popular with a small group of people for a short period of time.

A trend is something that becomes popular within mainstream society over a long period of time. It is the direction of a sequence of events that has some momentum and durability.

Latly I have been noticing that its Cool, fady, and trendy, to be at least Bi in school these days. Though it's nice that because of that it gets teens to actually get chance to find out exactly were they stand and why, it also shows that there is a strong choice involved, and doing it to be cool, is ... well as any other thing you do to be cool... stupid.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this, considering the nature of this site, but:

Religion is power through control.

Nothing more, nothing less.  Please note: I draw a distinction between Religion and Faith here - belief in God requires no dogma, but Religion does.  Religion seeks to influence the perceived (real or imagined) actions of a God, which is just silly - how can you hope to control the Infinite?  But on top of that, religion seeks to control the actions of people through the concept of sin.

It works like this:

Priest: "I don't like what you're doing, therefore it is a Sin.  If you don't stop Sinning, then you will be damned to burn forever in Hell after you die."

Supplicant: "Oh sh**, I better stop that then!"

So...people change what they're doing out of fear for their immortal soul, which is really a manifestation of fear of the unknown.

Once upon a time, this kind of control was needed.  Like five or six thousand years ago, in the time of the Old Testament prophets.  It was needed then to get a civilization going in a direction that didn't include slaughtering their neighboring nations on a whim (didn't help the Caananites, though) - hence the Ten Commandments.  "Thou shalt not kill."  "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." etc.  All with the unwritten qualifier of "or God will forsake you and you will be damned to burn in Hell forever."

Then along came the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth.  A totally different kind of prophet.  His message was "God loves you and just wants you to love Him and each other."  The words "you will be damned to Hell" never came out of that man's mouth!  Unfortunately, his message was completely lost on all but his closest friends, and even one of those twelve betrayed him.  In fact, his own people nailed him to a fucking cross just for saying they ought to try being nice to each other for a change.

So where do so-called "Christian" priests come off preaching this horse sh**?  Control.  They've taken the teachings of fear in the Old Testament and combined it all under the guise of worshiping the "Holy Trinity," the Christ, or even Mary (depending on which sect you're talking about).  In the end, it's all the same: if you're doing something the shamans don't like, it's Fire and Brimstone for you!

When you get right down to it, labeling homosexuality as a sin is a fear response.  Sexuality is a very strong instinct, everyone feels the urge to have sex to some extent.  This is a case of majority rules, though.  Most people are "wired" to be heterosexual, to have sex with the opposite gender to produce offspring.  To those people the thought of having sex with a member of their own gender is offensive and disgusting, so naturally people who have their "wires crossed" are going to scare the hell out of them.

"Straight" Religious People: "Your sexual preference offends me, therefore you are a Sinner and God hates you.  You are going to burn in Hell unless you change your ways."

Gay People: "How can you know what God thinks?"

"Straight" Religious People: "Because our Priest says God told him so."

Gay People: "But God made all of us, right?  If He made me this way, then how can He hate me for it?  I can't choose my sexual preference any more than you can."

"Straight" Religious People: "If our Priest says it, then we believe that it's true.  You are Sinners and you must change your ways or suffer damnation of your Immortal Soul."

To all so-called Christians who persecute gay people:  your Messiah would shun you, were he alive now.  Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth taught acceptance and unconditional love of all people who accept God in their hearts, regardless of gender, race, creed, or sexual preference. 

I know because God told me.

Latly I have been noticing that its Cool, fady, and trendy, to be at least Bi in school these days. Though it's nice that because of that it gets teens to actually get chance to find out exactly were they stand and why, it also shows that there is a strong choice involved, and doing it to be cool, is ... well as any other thing you do to be cool... stupid.

You mean like smoking?  /pokepoke

You're right about it being trendy to be at least bi in high school these days.  I started noticing it the year after I quit high school, and never quite understood it.  I think...no, I really don't have any kind of explanation for it.

[Rachael]

Then along came the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth.  A totally different kind of prophet.  His message was "God loves you and just wants you to love Him and each other."  The words "you will be damned to Hell" never came out of that man's mouth!  Unfortunately, his message was completely lost on all but his closest friends, and even one of those twelve betrayed him.  In fact, his own people nailed him to a fucking cross just for saying they ought to try being nice to each other for a change.

Have you read the Bible?  Jesus mentions hell quite a bit.  Just one example of this:

"It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:47-48

Now, whether or not Jesus was talking about a place of eternal torment for people such as gays and Democrats depends on how you interpret it.  I personally don't believe that's what Jesus meant by "hell"--in fact, the very website where I got that quote does a good job of explaining this:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

But certainly, many Christian beliefs pertaining to hell did come from the four Gospels.  Even so, Jesus didn't mention homosexuality at all, and you think he would have, seeing as it was a fairly common practice at the time.  When I point this out to anti-gay Christians, they usually either direct me to teachings by Paul or other apostles, or they mention Jesus' mention of "men who become eunuchs for the kingdom of God."  That's way too vague when compared with the Old Testament's mention of homosexuality.

One of my favorite questions regarding this is:

"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision." -Lynn Lavner

[Rosa D.]

I choose to be confused!

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Have you read the Bible?  Jesus mentions hell quite a bit.

Not to be nitpicky, but did you read my post?

The words "you will be damned to Hell" never came out of that man's mouth!

Of course he mentioned Hell!  The man was raised as a Jew, after all.  What I'm saying is that he didn't go around telling people "what you're doing is evil, so you better stop or you'll be damned to burn in Hell for it." 

And yeah, homosexuality was a common practice, so Jesus not mentioning it is very conspicuous.

[Rachael]

Ah, I gotcha.  You're right that he was nothing like the fire-and-brimstone Christians you see today.

Anyway, back on topic, I think middle and high school kids who call themselves "bi" may have picked up on something we haven't.

What if so-called "sexuality" is just a label?  What if we all have the capacity to love someone of the same sex, but the "right" person hasn't come along yet?

For example, I consider myself heterosexual because I am attracted to men.  To get further to the point, I'm attracted to those who are masculine in both manner and appearance.  However, I have considered situations such as the following:

I become interested in a man and being to date him.  As it turns out, we both find each other very attractive.  We have common interests and goals, but we also have things to teach and learn from each other.  He is very romantic, not pushy at all, and loyal.  He knows how to stimulate me both physically and intellectually.

We eventually become close enough so that he's ready to confide in me.  He says to me, "Rachael, I have something to tell you.  I don't feel the need to tell people right off the bat, but now that things are getting serious between us you have a right to know.  I'm an FtM transsexual.  I've been taking testosterone for a long time, but I've decided to keep the sexual organs I was born with."

I'll never know exactly how I react unless it happens, but I don't think I'd reject him because he's got different "plumbing" than I expected.  And I wouldn't just love him--eventually I would be intimate with him, doing what I can to please the parts he has, even thought I never planned on it before meeting him.

I don't really care anymore if people think I'm bisexual, or even a lesbian.  I think that who we are is partially based on how we define ourselves.  So if someone in high school claims to be bisexual, I'm not going to argue with them.

[CrayonEater]

  Starts singing....

iiiiiittttt'ssss Ok 2 B gay , let's rejoice with the boyz in the GAY way!!! Hooray for the kind of man that you will  find in the gay way..... *wanders off still singing*

[Goman Fox]

Well, my main thoughts on this are mentioned pretty well by Herman.  I believe there is a big difference between sexuality (what one does sexually with others) and sexual orientation (what people one is attracted to).  You don't have to be gay to have sex with a member of the same sex, just like having sex with someone of the same sex doesn't make you gay.  I think the whole "bisexual fad" in high schools (I noticed it to), if anything, is limited to sexuality.  Horny and/or curious teenagers exploring their sexuality.  They aren't choosing to love one sex or the other (or both) they're just choosing to have sex with them, or just label themselves in a way, suggesting they have sex with them.

Or, it may not have to do with sex at all.  One reason teens may call themselves bisexual if they aren't is for attention.  It could piss off conservative parents, or allow them into a less-than-popular group.  Some teens love attention, positive or negative, so why not join the fags and dykes?

Honestly, I don't believe sexuality is a choice at all.  I never decided to be gay and most people I've met didn't choose their sexuality.  There is one person I know that identifies as bisexual that claims sexuality is a choice and while I won't say he's wrong, I do believe his point of view may be a bit biased.  He's attracted to both men and women, pretty equally from what I'm told, so he could easily choose to be with a man or a woman.  If everyone had the same, equal attractions, I'd agree that sexual orientation is a choice, as long as we're just talking about who you find attractive.

There is the argument though that gays do have a choice because they can choose to be with members of the opposite sex.  A friend of mine actually pointed this out to me when we were talking about equal rights with gay marriage.  While she's not homophobic, she's against gay marriage (or at least she was years ago when I spoke to her about it).  She pointed out that gays have equal rights because like everyone else, they can choose to be with a member of the opposite sex and marry them.  While this makes logical sense, I think it's a bit of a selfish argument.  Anyone can choose to be with anyone else, but why should they be forced to be with someone they aren't attractive to while others can choose to be with people they are attracted to?

What would the implications be if it were proven that homosexuality was a choice?

Just want to point out real quick that I don't believe it is a choice.

But if it was a choice, I think the difference between how things would be and how they are now would be drastically different.  If homosexuality was a choice, either there wouldn't be much of a gay community (why would people choose to be hated?) or there wouldn't be a difference between the gay and straight community.  But really I think a big part of what holds the gay community together is the fact that homosexuality isn't a choice.  People want a place where they can feel welcome even though they aren't "normal" but if they could just decide to be "normal" why would they need the gay community?

Really I don't think I have any choice at all.  I can't think of any situation where I could be with a woman in a romantic relationship.  Even in Rachael's example, if I were stuck somewhere with an entirely female population, aside from myself, I could never pursue a romantic relationship.  I just don't feel that way for women, I'm gay.  Although that isn't to say that I believe Rachael is bisexual/lesbian because she would be with a woman in that situation.  Honestly I believe the difference is that Rachael probably have a stronger desire for companionship than I do.  While I do enjoy having someone to share my life with, the desire isn't strong enough for me to go to such extremes like being with a woman.

To summarize, I don't believe anyone can choose who they are attracted to.  They can decide who they will be with, sexually or romantically, but I doubt they'd be as happy as if they were with someone they felt a strong attraction for.

[lazydullard]

i believe you can condition yourself to feel or believe anything.

I think a lot of my guy friends are hot. If they knew, they would no longer be as close friends -- they would still be friends, but not even to "homeboy" status. I get arroused from them sometimes, or just wanna stare at their features. This would be a pretty big freak out for them. So whenever I do something like that, I say "Bad, bad," and I try to feel shame (usually by remembering a similiar shameful event) or by pounting out my flaws or whatever. Maybe smack myself occasionally.

It's like squashing any other "bad habit." Also, when I check out women with them, I will usually reward myself that evening with a beer or video game.

I have a definition of who I wanna be, and if I ever deviate from that, I punish myself. As long as I belive the definition is best, I won't have a problem keeping it up. Does this mean I'm not being my true self? No. I consider my true self to be the definition, and so I keep working to it.

[Zev The Dog]

How you feel today might change considerably tomorrow. If you had lived your life like a straight (or not) arrow; what would you do if one day you woke up with feelings for the opposite/same gender? Are you suddenly straight, gay, bisexual? Is there any definite way of classifying how you feel when your heart says ‘do it‘ and your mind says ‘don’t?’ or vice versa!

Guess its all a matter of opinion (there’s that evil cliché monster rearing its ugly head again >_<)

[Ekim]

^ all to deep to read, so I thought I would just insert this useless post

[CrayonEater]

Meh. I am what some people have told me is "A sexual" I am merely a half girl half boy (more boy) Smashed into this female body...    stupid boobs...  hee.