In Defense of Radical Feminism

[Rachael]

I've been reading the words of a lot of radical feminists lately, and it seems they receive a lot of flak from both men and women.  Women often say, "I'm a feminist, but I'm not one of those radical feminists," and men say it's because of them that they prefer to stay away from the feminist movement altogether.  The religious right love radical feminists, because it helps them to build a strawman version of feminism that "proves" how it has destroyed the family.

However, radical feminists are a lot more important than we give them credit for.  Do you think the female suffrage movement would have gotten where it did if all the women just sat back and said, "Well, I would really like to be allowed to vote.  But, if the laws says I can't then I guess that's just the way it goes"?  No!  Would there be any laws against marital rape if some women didn't stand up and say, "Wait a minute!  If a woman has no right to refuse sex if she doesn't want it, there is something very wrong here"?  NO!

Even if you ignore the fact that radical feminists are often the ones who get things done, they also raise many valid points.  I can't say I've entirely changed my position on pornography, or prostitution, or the patriarchy, but they've definitely got me thinking.  They've opened my eyes to the way women are still objectified in every day life--for example, street harassment.  Many people accept it because they think it's a "compliment."  But no one who shouts out, "Hey, sexy!" or "Show us your tits!" to a complete stranger is interested in getting to know that person as a human being.  It's degradation, plain and simple.

"But what about the men?" some people object.  "Feminists say they're about equality, but they just want to shift the sexism towards men and create a matriarchal society!"

This is a very common argument against feminism.  But think about how similar this is to people's arguments that "whites are the new minority" and "Christians are persecuted every day in the U.S.!"

Let's say that 100 years ago, men had 80% of the power and women had 20%.  As the feminist movement started taking hold, that number of power that men had decreased and the power women had increased--say, 70% and 30%.  I'd say right now we're at 60-40--maybe even 55-45 in some areas--but if you're used to the 70-30 power split, of course it's going to feel like men are being oppressed.  And if it ever comes to 50-50, it's going to feel that way even more.

But in the end, it's worth it--not just for women, but for men as well.  A lot of people say that men get the short end of the stick when it comes to custody battles, and that men who are nurses or sociologists are given a hard time by their female co-workers.  What people don't understand is that these are two sides of the same coin.  Yes, there are a few "advantages" women get from being treated as less than human.  We can't be drafted (although I oppose the draft for women AND men), we can show our emotions (although many times we're told we're "irrational" or "hysterical" when we do), and we can use our sexuality to get what we want (if we fit the nigh impossible beauty standard, that is).  But I really do think that in the end, even if we lose these "privileges," the trade-off will definitely be worth it.

So next time you hear a radical feminist say something you disagree with, don't tell her she's silly.  Don't tell her she's just bitter because she can't get a man, or that she's probably a lesbian, or that she's ugly.  Listen to what she has to say.

It may change your view completely.

[Oni]

Can some one step up and giver her a paw here.

I can see your point. Hell Extremest and Radical people are normally the ones who get things done. Weather or not they are for the good is completely different. There are many suddle things I think women take for granted, that they like more, than everything they would get from being a Radical. LIke having a random stranger open a door for you, offer you a coat in the rain.

There are fields that women dominate more so than men. And the reasons for that could be as simple as men dont want the jobs and so women take them. But what aboot us femmy men that want to work with the ladies and look at the boobies all day. Oh snap did I just say that. I mean duh that's  the only reason men let women in the office, and let them wear just aboot what ever they damn well please. Because we want to see some boobies. Its the women that dont want to see it that complain. You guys are not only your own enmy in this battle but ours too. If i want to walk up to a complete stranger and be like "Damn you one fine looking biotch" I should have that right. Its paying a complement. now there are politer ways of saying "Hi, I just wanted to let your know I think your very beautiful." But it's just not as colorful. Ya it all depends on what you say, and how you act if you get slapped or not. You act like a jack ass you get treated like one. You act like a gentlemen  you get treated like one.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

*rubs eyes*  Too early for this kind of post.

I'm not going to attack or defend anybody, but I will address one of your points as one of the few hetero males who frequent this forum:

They've opened my eyes to the way women are still objectified in every day life--for example, street harassment.  Many people accept it because they think it's a "compliment."  But no one who shouts out, "Hey, sexy!" or "Show us your tits!" to a complete stranger is interested in getting to know that person as a human being.  It's degradation, plain and simple.

Men like to look at women.  It's hard-wired into us, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.  To top it all off, most women like to be looked at by men.  That also is hard-wired.  The difference is personality: some women like to be looked at by all men, and some women (like my wife) only like to be looked at by their chosen man.  This is the reason that pornography exists.  Those women aren't being exploited or degraded, they're being employed (read: paid, very very well) doing something that they've chosen to do.

What you've described is harassment, specifically sexual harassment, and if you haven't noticed: we have laws against that.  Laws written by men and women who know that this kind of treatment is wrong, no matter who it's aimed at.  It is not, however, degradation unless the woman in question responds to the pressure by actually showing her tits against her will or better judgment.

My only remaining caveat: unless you shout in my face that "all men are pigs," I'm not going to consider you a "radical feminist" or man-hater.  That's just my way.  Our country wouldn't be enjoying the level of equal rights and freedom that we now have if some women more than 50 years ago hadn't dredged up a pair of balls from somewhere and used them to get sh** done.  All I can say is Rosie the Riveter has TMAK's respect.

[Rachael]

There are many suddle things I think women take for granted, that they like more, than everything they would get from being a Radical. LIke having a random stranger open a door for you, offer you a coat in the rain.

Well, here at UAA, everyone opens doors for everyone. :p I only want someone to hold the door for me if I'm carrying a lot of stuff or if I'm on crutches or something.  I only want someone to offer me a coat if I don't have one and they have a spare--I don't need them to give me their coat.  Both of the above things--at least, when a male rushes to do them for a female who has absolutely nothing weighing her down--come from the perception that women are helpless, something that needs to be protected.  Do you really think most women would rather continue to be seen as unequal to men than open their own doors?  That's preposterous.

But what aboot us femmy men that want to work with the ladies and look at the boobies all day. Oh snap did I just say that. I mean duh that's  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  the only reason men let women in the office, and let them wear just aboot what ever they damn well please.

Are you serious?  Women are only allowed to work in the office because they have breasts?  Uh, no.  That's an extremely sexist statement.

If i want to walk up to a complete stranger and be like "Damn you one fine looking biotch" I should have that right. Its paying a complement.

No, that's not a compliment.  Referring to a woman you don't even know as a "bitch" is NEVER a compliment.  You are, in effect, saying, "All that matters to me is whether or not you are fuckable.  I do not even see you as a woman, but as an animal."  Any man who says this is trying to put the woman in her place, to establish himself as the dominant party.  It's a disgusting, chauvinist tactic, and it proves he has absolutely NO respect for women.

Now, on to you, TM.  I'm not going to tackle pornography because I'm still deciding on what position I have myself, but I do have a couple of things to say about some of your other claims.

Men like to look at women.  It's hard-wired into us, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.  To top it all off, most women like to be looked at by men.  That also is hard-wired.  The difference is personality: some women like to be looked at by all men, and some women (like my wife) only like to be looked at by their chosen man.

Has it occurred to you that *gasp* many women like both to look at men and be looked at?  I don't mind appreciative glances sent my way.  Hey, I check out men, too!  The idea that men are the voyeurs and women are the exhibitionists is outdated.  Men may be more visually stimulated than women, but trust me, it is not unusual for a woman to become aroused from looking at a sexy image.  It's nowhere near as "hard-wired" as you think.

What you've described is harassment, specifically sexual harassment, and if you haven't noticed: we have laws against that.  Laws written by men and women who know that this kind of treatment is wrong, no matter who it's aimed at.

Actually, there are laws against specific acts of harassment, such as unwanted groping or, in the workplace, saying something like, "I'll raise your pay if you give me a *******."  There aren't really any laws protecting women against street harassment.  If there's a cop nearby and you ask them to do something, chances are they'll just say the men harassing you are practicing their "freedom of speech."

It is not, however, degradation unless the woman in question responds to the pressure by actually showing her tits against her will or better judgment.

One of the definitions of "degradation" is "decline to a low, destitute, or demoralized state."  To "demoralize" is "to weaken the morale of; discourage, dispirit."  If you don't think being told by someone that they like big, fat, white women isn't demoralizing, then you're made of stronger stuff than I am.

[Oni]

* Oni Falls out of Chair laughing like a mad man. Okay Okay Okay This is going to be oogles of fun.

Women should be treat as equals eh? Well lets look at the standards they have to up hold in the military to simply prove my point. Women are not expected to do the same as men.

I would bet money that If you and I were out side in the cold, and I had a jacket (just the one I was wearing) you would take it before you froze to death. It's called being polite, and the point you were trying to make I think you lost, and instead made this point.

Hi I am a Woman, who is so proud of herself, and equal to a man, I can't even take a simple kind jesture with out fliping a gasket and thinking he is only doing it cause he wants in my pants.

I think women want to be seen how they present themselves. Much like men. If I want to be seen as a overly femmy faggy boy, then I will dress and act acordingly. I am sure a woman would be more pissed if I closed the door on my way into wal-mart, in her face, than hold it open for her. It's called a polite jesture. Like opening it for a child, or the elderly, or any person behind you or infront of you.

No matter how you swing it. Women are not Equal (I am not saying that men are better either). But there are things that women can do better than men, and visa versa. For EG. Women look better in a two piece bathing suit than guys.

Women should be kept at home in the kitchen doing cooking, cleaning, and caring for the family and the mans needs. Isn't that's  whats going on in todays culture right now. That must make TM the woman....*looks at him* well aside from having the best jugs I have ever sceen, he does not look like a women.

Look at an office building. It is RUN by men, with women working below them. Men wear suits and dress clothing, while women whoredrobe can be what ever she wants as long as it looks profesional. Hell she can wear mens clothing to work if she wants to.

Bet you money between me or a women applying for hte same office job with the same exact skills and tallents the women would get it. You dont believe me....go look through and office some time.

Some times freedom of speech does allow for the option for people to hear what they don't like. I could open my window right now and yell out the most obcene racest comments that I want to. Would most likly get me shot. But I could. I would walk down the street with TM and be like. Damn I would so Tap that Ass. And god forbid the women herd me. OH wait! Maybe she would like to hear that. maybe some women like that type of attention, and act to get it.

You would be suprised. I know people that would take that exact statmen "Damn your one fine looking biotch" and love to hear it. Remember words are words and mean different thing to different people. Hence why you can't control what is said. Or do you think it should be agaist the law for me to sit and stare at a women in the park who is wearing a short skirt and awhite teashirt and wonder to myself what she would look like if she got splashed by water and triped over the cute red head behind her, knocking them both into the mud were they continue to splash and play fight aboot. You want to control what people do, act, think, respond?

There are time when both women and men need put in there place. What you don't hear is the men biotching about sh** like this. Why because they know if they complain that the women leads the relationship, and there are double standerds, he wont get his nooky. God forbid that I point out to Fox that he controls the sex in the relationship, and there are things I just dont do, but are ok for him to do. To insure I get laid. Men know better then to point things out like that to women, and point out how much control and how unfair it is to them. Why cause they want the sexing. And WOMEN know this, and use it to there advantage. that's  just what they do. Some realize it some dont. It's a natural action.

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Men like to look at women.  It's hard-wired into us, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.  To top it all off, most women like to be looked at by men.  That also is hard-wired.  The difference is personality: some women like to be looked at by all men, and some women (like my wife) only like to be looked at by their chosen man.

Has it occurred to you that *gasp* many women like both to look at men and be looked?  I don't mind appreciative glances sent my way.  Hey, I check out men, too!  The idea that men are the voyeurs and women are the exhibitionists is outdated.  Men may be more visually stimulated than women, but trust me, it is not unusual for a woman to become aroused from looking at a sexy image.  It's nowhere near as "hard-wired" as you think.

Its called sexual attraction and what arouses you. For Eg. I look at dudes. You Look at dudes. TM looks at Dudets. But some people like more attention than others. Some people like wistles and hollars, and others just prefer the quick glance. It's all in how the recipient takes it. Different ideas amongst differnt people.

I think it's ok to walk up and play drums on a womens tits if there a nice rack. But I don't think most women would enjoy that.

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This is the reason that pornography exists.  Those women aren't being exploited or degraded, they're being employed (read: paid, very very well) doing something that they've chosen to do.

Now, I'm not going to speak for every woman or every porn star.  But in most cases, it's not as simple a matter as "choice."  I suggest you do some research on the anti-porn movement.  Oh, most people will say, "But those websites are biased!  Yes, they are biased.  I'm not saying you have to listen to every word they say.  But think about it.  I'm not trying to make you stop looking at porn, let alone actually legally ban it.  I just want you, and everyone else who says porn isn't degrading to women, to think about it. (I admit I am leaving out gay porn here--this is because I really haven't done enough research on it.  But I am willing to bet there's a lot of degradation going on in gay porn, too.)

that's  just overly conservitive. How is a porn were a women has a man tied up and is slaping him with a whip and teasing him while she goes off and makes out with another women degrating to the women. I think that's  degrating to the man. BUT that's  it right there. I THINK. LOL

  If there's a cop nearby and you ask them to do something, chances are they'll just say the men harassing you are practicing their "freedom of speech."

I doubt  cop would do much more than say Hay its not a good idea to say that. Unless you are Following the person and yelling comments at them. THat would be like me following TM around and saying. DUDE check that guys jugs, omg I so want to just hold them up to my mouth and drink form them. Now granted if I did to that to that to TM he would, After laughing at all the ractions we got from people, turn around hand me on of his jugs and let me crack it open and put it to my lips and drink the sweet home brew nector from it. Oh got side tracked there. If I was chasing a woman around saying things like that. Ya I am sure a few things one happen. She would turn around and knock my ass out, some better man than I would come and tell me to knock it off (thereby saving the women and being in trouble from the women for protecting her), or a cop would tell me to knock it off, and might lock me up for a while.


But I am so derailed now I dont even know what I am yammering on....oh ya Beaner get you but back in the kitchen and make me some pie.

[ViewSonic]

Here is what I think. I think women flat out are weaker than men. that's  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  just how God made us.

And what I really think, and I am sure will just piss people off with this comment.

Only Hideously Grotesque, Unattractive women, that don't get the attention there Beautiful Full Breasted Slim waist Counter Parts Get, Think that men are pigs, when in reality they are just simply jealous of natural selection.

When I marry I expect my wife to stay at home, and do the House work. Now that is old fashioned way of thinking, but that's (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  how I think. And when I find a women I will tell her that too. If she says with me and marries me than guess what. SHE put her self in that situation of her own accord.

[Eternimus]

Okay I've got to touch on a few points here. Because I don't think of women that try to get a bit more rights for women as radical. I think the women who think women should have all the power are radical. It's real simple.

1) If you don't care what rights you have as a woman, you aren't a feminist.

2) If you think women should have equal rights and be treated nicely, you're a present-day woman. (read: FEMINIST)

3) If you think the covers over sewer openings should be called "Person-hole covers" instead of Manhole covers, you're retarded. And that's where most radical feminists come in.

Unlike TM, I WILL attack and defend people. See, I won't go into the degradation/harassment difference, because TM already touched on that point. Fact of the matter is I don't CARE if women have equal rights. Because they won't use em. See I know a lot of women. And the fact is, most of them want all the benefits of being a guy, and STILL be treated like a shy, delicate little flower.

BULLSHIT!

If you want to be treated like a guy, then you should be treated like a guy. Open your own friggin doors, order and pay for your own damn food on a date, get drafted like most males can, take jokes and insults and not bitch about em, and shut the hell up. Yeah, women for the most part haven't been treated equally. The chivalrous among us have treated them BETTER. The garbage among us have treated them WORSE. This is basic sh**. See women in the workplace do not want to be treated like men. Just paid like em. See if some guys are bullshitting around a water cooler in an office, and one guy says to the other one "You're a needle-dick bug-fucker" the guys will have a laugh, or the insults will go around, and maybe a fight or two, but it ends. You look at a woman at that SAME WATER COOLER and say "Wow you have pretty small tits." YOU get reprimanded and sent to sensitivity training.

The pure and basic fact is women do NOT want to be treated like equals. They want to be complimented. They want to be spoiled. They want to be defended. They want a big paycheck, and the right to tell each guy what he may or may not say to her. How many guys have you heard of sending another guy or a woman to jail or sensitivity training for a compliment or a statement? How many girls have you heard of sending a girl or man to jail or sensitivity training for the same thing? Equal rights is a crock because they aren't equal. A guy walks up to woman and starts hitting on her, and she takes offense, she gets a cop, or some authoritative figure wherever she is, and gets the guy hauled away. A guy walks up to another guy and starts that, and the other guy is not gay, the first guy gets slugged right in the jaw.

Talking is another way where women want special privileges. If a guy is chattering away, and someone wants him to be quiet, he's told to shut up. The guy then knows that his comments are not needed, and stops. Usually. Unless it's some dick. If a woman is chattering away, and the man doesn't want to hear it, and tells her just to shut up, he's being cruel and stifling.

Radical feminists are a group I have an issue with, just like many gay, political and religious groups. And that is Freedom of Speech. Because of them, women believe women have the ability to say what they wish. Whenever they wish. As do all of the other groups. But the first time you say something they don't like, such as the religion is a lie, get back in the kitchen where you belong, fucking queers, then BAM! It's lawsuit time. ALL groups that clamor to equal rights are not, were not, never have and never will want things equal. They want to be special. Brown Pride, Black Pride, White Supremacists, Radical Feminists, Religious Fundamentalists, ANY group. They are making gays in the Hate Crimes list now. It's gotten to the point where if you are a white male, and you do ANYTHING physical except beat off, it's a hate crime. I got news for you guys, it's not. Just as anyone who speaks out against feminists aren't pigs, or "Typical Men!"

I have NO problem speaking out against any group that says and does the complete opposite. If a white male files a complaint against a woman for sexism, or any other color for racism, he will get laughed right out of court. Why? All the man was doing is treating the other party as an equal. If a man gets into an argument with a feminist, and she takes a swing, and he beats her ass, HE gets hauled away because women have to be protected, obviously. For the most part, throughout history, women have been smaller and weaker than men. It's just simple genetics. Because of that, and some women just losing their minds and deciding to do something about it like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Coffin Mott, and Susan Brownell Anthony, feminism has happened. And it's rampant. I honestly blame feminism for the boom of gays. Seriously. hear me out on this one.

A guy says something to a woman. Just because a guy wants to sleep with a woman, doesn't mean he wants to know about her or cares to know about her as a person. So he says something considered obscene. "You have a sweet ass. Let's go to my place and get to know each other more ...heh... intimately." The woman has a few options.

1) Choose to go with the guy.
2) Refuse to go with the guy.
3) Trip.

Sluts pick 1, normal women and normal feminists pick 2, and radical feminists pick 3. Now look at this another way.

A guy says something to a gay man. Just because a guy wants to sleep with another guy, doesn't mean he wants to know about him or cares to know about him as a person. So he says something considered obscene. "You have a sweet ass. Let's go to my place and get to know each other more ...heh... intimately." The man has a few options.

1) Choose to go with the guy.
2) Refuse to go with the guy.
3) Trip.

Sluts pick 1, other gays pick 2 or 3 depending on the mood.

What better way to shut your enemy up then by joining them?

Aside from death, of course.

That situation is nearly IDENTICAL if you replace it with a gay man or a feminist, slutty or not!!! Guys got women to piss them off SO BADLY with their mindless radical feminist rhetoric they became gay just to shut them up! It's a damned conspiracy, and I for one will not fall for it.

And to the OP, I have listened. I listen to feminists, radical feminists, and nearly every group known to the human race in my lifetime. And I can tell you something. As hard as they try to hide it, it all boils down to the same thing. Each one wants to be special. Each one wants the treatment they want. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. Has to do with "how much can I get away with?" see I don't support any group. At all.

I don't support Gays getting special treatment. I don't support anyone of any race, gender, religion, sexual preference, hair color, eye color, breast size, car type, income level, health, publicity, ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. I don't, and I won't. I support EQUALITY. Something radical feminists know f*** all and care to know f*** all about.

EQUALITY means you can insult them, hit on them, comment to them, state your opinion, laugh with, joke with, and no one gets offended. You can get in a fight and not be considered anti-whatever. You can make jokes without being considered insensitive. That's why the ONLY people I bother to keep as my close friends are people like that. And that's also why my circle of friends is so small. I have minions, people that owe me, willingly indebted people, people that fear and respect me. But friends? Just a handful. Because too many people these days have no sense of humor. They always try to get special treatment. Racial slurs and sexist comments are just some of the reason we will never have equality. Because they are only words. And as long as you give words power over you, you lose. Radical feminists could take a tip from that. They are only words. Women are objectified because it's easy work for the "pretty ones" to do. And it makes the rest of the female populace feel bad. So radical feminists attack them. Trying to gather an army that will rise against the establishment, and make this place matriarchal instead of patriarchal. And you know what? Women aren't the only ones who are objectified, men are too. Men have women scream harassment to them as well. Men are used as sex objects. Men are just eye candy. Women go to bars to pick up guys just to bang em and leave em. But we don't complain about it. Know why? We know that's just how life is. If the roles were reversed, and women were in charge all the time, you'd have guys with the same damn problems women have, but we wouldn't be sitting around whining about it, trying to find some way to make it easier for us to go through life without making a choice, or becoming educated, and having everything handed to us because of our gender. I have had a "radical" feminist tell me TO MY FACE her group said that the reason she couldn't work for a law firm is because of her gender. Not the fact she was working at McDonald's for just a few months, had no education but a GED, never went to college for anything, no educational hobbies she could bring to the table, typed like 10 wpm, just because she was a woman. That is the kind of retarded stuff that I mean. You are not immediately special or should be treated differently just because of your gender. I have 2 daughters and a son. And I treat the three of them the same way. I'm strict, rough, and wrestle with them. And they are each told if you want something in life fight for it, cause the sh** isn't gonna be handed to you.

The funniest part about all of this is when women dress like sluts, then get mad when they are treated like that. I'm not the kind of person to blame a woman getting raped on the woman because of how she's dressed. I have so much control over my body I don't even get aroused if I don't want to, so I'm pretty sure any man can keep himself from committing rape. What I'm saying is when women dress like sluts, and go to nightclubs, and then get mad when they are hit on by men, or a group of girls having a "girl's night out" and getting mad when guys come over and try to take them home. "Oh it's just because they are men who don't even think with their brains" I got some news for you dumb bimbos.

That is what those clubs are FOR!

If you don't want to be hit on, don't dress up, and don't go out. This is low-tech sh** folks. But any feminist, radical or not, will say I'm just being degrading to women. It's a woman's right to dress and go wherever the hell they want. Which is true. And it's my right to be boned up and want to bring them home. Deal with it.

Next time you talk to a radical feminist, listen. And then tell her she's full of sh**, and life is all about choice. For men and women. Tell her you're choosing to call her a dumb cunt, and she is choosing to be offended. Then walk away. You don't want anything to do with an asshole like that.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

It's more hard-wired on an instinctive level than you'd like to believe, apparently, but eh whatever. 

Has it occurred to you that *gasp* many women like both to look at men and be looked at?  I don't mind appreciative glances sent my way.  Hey, I check out men, too!  The idea that men are the voyeurs and women are the exhibitionists is outdated.  Men may be more visually stimulated than women, but trust me, it is not unusual for a woman to become aroused from looking at a sexy image.  It's nowhere near as "hard-wired" as you think.

Spoken like a true thirty-year-old virgin.  I was speaking on one aspect of the subject in response to your ridiculous out-of-the-blue feminist post.  Stop and think for a moment: how possible is it that I could have stayed happily married these last 14 years without knowing the above bit of trivia?  That's one of the problems that men in general have with "radical feminists" in general: it is assumed that we're ignorant and insensitive, when it's nowhere near that simple.

You just got owned by Eternimus, he said everything that could possibly have brought to bear, but he did so twice as well as I ever could have.  But I will use his arguments here and point a couple things out from my own experience:

I have NO problem speaking out against any group that says and does the complete opposite. If a white male files a complaint against a woman for sexism, or any other color for racism, he will get laughed right out of court. Why? All the man was doing is treating the other party as an equal.

I have four words for this phenomenon: Alaska Native Medical Center.

Ten months of constant snide remarks, asinine assumptions, and general poor treatment just because I happen to be a white guy.  Starting with a nurse asking my wife "Is this your husband?  Is he the father?" and ending with the hospital staff refusing to discharge my newborn daughter into my care because I'm just her father.  If you can't describe an experience to equal 10 months of constant persecution because of your color and gender, then you have no right to speak about sexual discrimination of any kind.

For the most part, throughout history, women have been smaller and weaker than men. It's just simple genetics.

Here you are mistaken.  It's not genetics, it's hormones.  Women being physically weaker than men in a weight-lifting sense is the difference between testosterone and estrogen.
I can add nothing else that Eternimus hasn't already shown me up on.

[Rachael]

1. Oni, you will see I edited my post and removed the reference to pornography, because I really am not educated enough to make much of a statement--and, as you can see, it was difficult for me to not use an emotional appeal.

2. Eternimus--it is because of many of your sentiments that feminists are not taken seriously today.  I will respond to them individually, but right now I do not have time.  I will simply leave you with this statement: Men still have most of the POWER in society today.  That is why men are allowed to call each other "needle-dick bug fucker."  It doesn't mean anything.  It's the same reason why a white man who calls a black man "nigger" will be taken much more seriously than a black man who calls a white man "honky."  Whites still hold most of society's POWER.

Again, I will respond to both yours and Oni's posts in time.  Please be patient.

3. TM, I'm a 22-year-old virgin.  But thanks for asking.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Well, here at UAA, everyone opens doors for everyone. :p I only want someone to hold the door for me if I'm carrying a lot of stuff or if I'm on crutches or something.  I only want someone to offer me a coat if I don't have one and they have a spare--I don't need them to give me their coat.  Both of the above things--at least, when a male rushes to do them for a female who has absolutely nothing weighing her down--come from the perception that women are helpless, something that needs to be protected.  Do you really think most women would rather continue to be seen as unequal to men than open their own doors?  That's preposterous.

Something else I wanted to address.  I open doors for my wife.  I always make sure my wife and daughter are on the inside of the sidewalk when we're out walking around.  I always offer my arm to any woman whom I am accompanying when we are walking through an icy parking lot.  I do these things because my mother taught me that this is what gentlemen do.  And you know what?  I have never had a woman, feminist or otherwise, complain about me doing these things.

This is why I said your argument just got shredded by Eternimus.  Women don't want equal rights, they want to be special.

[Oni]

Rachael,
   Stand your ground. I think that if you make a post like this you should defend it. Please find the time.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Hey, while we're at it, can we get some more "in defense of radical [group]" threads going?  I'd love to see Rachel's reaction to a "In Defense of Fascist Neo-Nazi White Supremacy" thread.

That was so tongue-in-cheek, if you missed that part.

[Oni]

Hey, while we're at it, can we get some more "in defense of radical [group]" threads going?  I'd love to see Rachel's reaction to a "In Defense of Fascist Neo-Nazi White Supremacy" thread.

That was so tongue-in-cheek, if you missed that part.

Hail Hitler

[Rachael]

Women should be treat as equals eh? Well lets look at the standards they have to up hold in the military to simply prove my point. Women are not expected to do the same as men.

If a woman is going to join the military, damn right she needs to be held to the same standards as men.  Some women will disagree with me.  But this is very, very important.  We cannot use the excuse that we're "weaker" or "smaller" or that we get periods.  The result may be fewer women in the military, but those women who do make it will be an inspiration for all of us.  Equality has consequences.

[quoteI would bet money that If you and I were out side in the cold, and I had a jacket (just the one I was wearing) you would take it before you froze to death. It's called being polite, and the point you were trying to make I think you lost, and instead made this point.

Well, if the situation were that we'd starve to death without jackets--i.e., in the middle of a frozen, barren wasteland with no shelter around--I would agree to share the jacket.  In that case, body heat would be better anyway.

And you know what?  Maybe someday you will offer me your jacket and I, without thinking, will take it from you.  In that case, Oni, all you need to do is call me on it, and I'll give it back to you.

Hi I am a Woman, who is so proud of herself, and equal to a man, I can't even take a simple kind jesture with out fliping a gasket and thinking he is only doing it cause he wants in my pants.

See, this is a great example of a straw man (or straw woman, hahaha) argument.  There are two problems with this statement.

1. "Simple kind gesture."  Saying, "I like your sweater" or "You have nice hair" or even "I think you're very beautiful" is a kind gesture.  Opening the door for someone weighed down with groceries is a kind gesture.  Calling out to someone like they're a piece of meat and making uncomfortable comments about their body is not.  It is harassment.

2. "Flipping a gasket."  Maybe if the woman turns around and jams her knee into his groin, or pulls a gun on him, she's flipping a gasket.  Turning around saying, "Excuse me, that is NOT okay." is not flipping a gasket.  Giving the person a dirty look is not flipping a gasket.  But the fact is, most women are afraid to even do that much because they think the harasser is going to get nasty.

I am sure a woman would be more pissed if I closed the door on my way into wal-mart, in her face, than hold it open for her. It's called a polite jesture. Like opening it for a child, or the elderly, or any person behind you or infront of you.

Well, yes, if she's right in front of you, it's a little rude to slam it in her face.  And honestly, opening doors isn't a huge issue with me.  I don't really care if someone opens a door for me.  I often say thank you and return the favor.  This whole "opening doors" thing came from way back when men would get out of their cars and dash over to the passenger's side to open the door for his perfectly capable date, and then dash to the door of the restaurant, movie theater, etc. and hold that open as well.

Women should be kept at home in the kitchen doing cooking, cleaning, and caring for the family and the mans needs. Isn't that's  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  whats going on in todays culture right now.

Well, if that wasn't how our culture was, there wouldn't be people trying to change it.

Look at an office building. It is RUN by men, with women working below them. Men wear suits and dress clothing, while women whoredrobe can be what ever she wants as long as it looks profesional. Hell she can wear mens clothing to work if she wants to.

Before I respond to this comment, I will have to ask what you mean by "whoredrobe."  Right after you used that extremely clever word, you added "as long as it looks professional."  If she looks professional, what's the problem?  Are you talking about skirts?  Also, how many women do you see wearing "men's clothing"?  Do you mean pants?  From what I've seen, women who wear pants often wear a very feminine-looking top, usually a blouse, and feminine shoes.  How many women do you actually see wearing a full suit and tie?  And I'm not talking about pants suits, either.  Those are still "women's clothing."

I'm all for men being able to dress as women, and vice versa, if they so choose.  But that can also be considered a feminist issue.  Feminism is about shaking off the fetters of the gender roles that are ascribed to us--the same gender roles that generate inequality.

Bet you money between me or a women applying for hte same office job with the same exact skills and tallents the women would get it. You dont believe me....go look through and office some time.

If she has the exact qualifications, why shouldn't she get the job?  If you're going to complain, complain about a woman with lesser skills than you getting the job, and I will agree with you 100%.

Some times freedom of speech does allow for the option for people to hear what they don't like. I could open my window right now and yell out the most obcene racest comments that I want to. Would most likly get me shot. But I could. I would walk down the street with TM and be like. Damn I would so Tap that Ass. And god forbid the women herd me. OH wait! Maybe she would like to hear that. maybe some women like that type of attention, and act to get it.

Believe it or not, I'm willing to bet most women don't want to hear "I would so tap that ass" in reference to themselves.  It's disrespectful.  And you know what?  Some women will react with a smile and a nod or a thank you because they're afraid.  I know because I've been harassed, and that's how I reacted--just a little chuckle and back to my book.  But I was scared.  I was scared he was going to start groping me or something, and I'd have to push him into oncoming traffic. (Well, okay, I wouldn't have done that, but you get the picture.)

Also, although I mentioned how you can't get a cop to stop people from saying what they will, I do not want to outlaw free speech.  What I am saying is that such things are sexist and demeaning, and that you shouldn't say them.  Or at the very least, don't let her hear them.  I'm not going to try to get the government to ban you from doing it, but I can still say you shouldn't do it.  That's my freedom of speech, too!

You would be suprised. I know people that would take that exact statmen "Damn your one fine looking biotch" and love to hear it. Remember words are words and mean different thing to different people. Hence why you can't control what is said. Or do you think it should be agaist the law for me to sit and stare at a women in the park who is wearing a short skirt and awhite teashirt and wonder to myself what she would look like if she got splashed by water and triped over the cute red head behind her, knocking them both into the mud were they continue to splash and play fight aboot. You want to control what people do, act, think, respond?

Of course not.  This is another argument against feminism.  "You just want to take our rights!"  No, we don't.  What we DO want is to be treated with equality and respect.  Think what you want, say what you want.  You should treat strangers with respect, no matter what their sex, color, or class.  I never said I want to make a law that says you can't be as much as a sexist asshole as you want.  But don't be shocked when the person you're addressing snaps at you, and then accuse her of "blowing a gasket."

There are time when both women and men need put in there place. What you don't hear is the men biotching about sh** like this.

Yes, because men are the ones in power.

Why because they know if they complain that the women leads the relationship, and there are double standerds, he wont get his nooky. God forbid that I point out to Fox that he controls the sex in the relationship, and there are things I just dont do, but are ok for him to do. To insure I get laid. Men know better then to point things out like that to women, and point out how much control and how unfair it is to them. Why cause they want the sexing. And WOMEN know this, and use it to there advantage. that's  (I'm a rogue apostrophe user)  just what they do. Some realize it some dont. It's a natural action.

There we go again, the "natural" argument.  Have you ever heard of social Darwinism, Oni?  It might be right up your alley.  You cannot argue social issues based on nature.  There will always be people who fit "outside" the norm.  A woman might actually want sex MORE than her husband (imagine that!).  There may even be some cases where the HUSBAND refuses sex in order to get where he wants.  I'm not saying this is common, but it does happen.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Not to stop Oni from getting the tearing-up that opening his mouth usually brings down upon him, but I wanted to clear some things up:

Before I respond to this comment, I will have to ask what you mean by "whoredrobe."

He's referring to plunging V and scoop necklines on tight fitting blouses and push-up bras.  Oni and I have both worked in offices enough to know that alluring clothing has always been commonplace even in the most professional of settings, but downright "slutty" attire has been becoming more and more commonplace over the last ten years or so.

Brings me to the next quote:

Bet you money between me or a women applying for hte same office job with the same exact skills and tallents the women would get it. You dont believe me....go look through and office some time.

If she has the exact qualifications, why shouldn't she get the job?  If you're going to complain, complain about a woman with lesser skills than you getting the job, and I will agree with you 100%.

Now you're just being obtuse.

This is not common knowledge, but I am a certified highly trained secretary.  I can type at 100+ WPM and 10-key at over 275 KSPM.  I know how to handle just about every kind of switchboard system ever made, and I've been formally trained in telephone etiquette.  On top of all that, I know computers in a way that most people wouldn't even be comfortable with admitting to, and I also speak four languages.  These are extremely marketable skills, are they not? 

So, explain to me how a skinny fresh-out-of-high-school 19 year old girl with no resumé, blonde hair, and a small nose gets hired over me to do a job that I'm easily ten times more qualified to do.  Explain to me how this could have possibly happened at every single employer I interviewed at for two years before I gave up and went to work in retail instead.

There is your feminist "power."

Try to remember, you're not talking to inexperienced and ignorant men here.  Collectively, the three of us have been there, we've done that, and we've talked about it.  We know what's going on, and we know that people like you who insist that women still don't have "equal rights" are either very gullible or full of sh**.

Believe it or not, I'm willing to bet most women don't want to hear "I would so tap that ass" in reference to themselves.  It's disrespectful.  And you know what?  Some women will react with a smile and a nod or a thank you because they're afraid.  I know because I've been harassed, and that's how I reacted--just a little chuckle and back to my book.  But I was scared.  I was scared he was going to start groping me or something, and I'd have to push him into oncoming traffic. (Well, okay, I wouldn't have done that, but you get the picture.)

Also, although I mentioned how you can't get a cop to stop people from saying what they will, I do not want to outlaw free speech.  What I am saying is that such things are sexist and demeaning, and that you shouldn't say them.  Or at the very least, don't let her hear them.  I'm not going to try to get the government to ban you from doing it, but I can still say you shouldn't do it.  That's my freedom of speech, too!

Ah, now you're getting into emotional responses and moral issues.  This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone has the same set of morals.  In fact, some people are downright immoral.  Wow, imagine that.  Not everyone is the same. O.O;  Scary thought.

There we go again, the "natural" argument.  Have you ever heard of social Darwinism, Oni?  It might be right up your alley.  You cannot argue social issues based on nature.  There will always be people who fit "outside" the norm.  A woman might actually want sex MORE than her husband (imagine that!).  There may even be some cases where the HUSBAND refuses sex in order to get where he wants.  I'm not saying this is common, but it does happen.

HAHAHAHAHA!  Social Darwinism!  That marries right into my response to the last quote: Man or woman, you must either learn to defend yourself against predators using any and every tool available to you, or die.  Survival of the fittest.  I fail to see how "arguing social issues based on nature" doesn't work when the "nature" being referenced is human nature.

As for the husband refusing sex to get what he wants...yeah.  Cite a reliable source to back that one up.  Remember, you're talking to experienced men here, and Oni is even experienced on both sides of the fence as it were.  In the entire fourteen years I've been married to Millie, I've refused an offer of sex exactly twice, and both times were because I was ill.  She, however, has always been more of the "I can take it or leave it" mentality regarding sex.  And the other girls before her?  As short as those relationships were, it was pretty much the same: I pursue it, they control it.

Men have a lot less "power" than you seem to think.  We are easily controlled through our gonads, and there isn't much we can do about it.  Masturbation?  Oni can tell you how satisfying that is, he does it often enough.