Are you Gay

[Oni]

Gay for this discussion means same sex love/sex.
Man + Man
Woman + Woman


Are you a Gay (Lesbian) if you sleep with a Drag Queen who thinks of themselves as female, but is biological a male (has all the male parts)?

If you are a Gay (Fagot) that sleeps with a Tom boy (opposite of Drag Queen), and they have all the female parts, but they are biological female. Are you still a Gay?

Same Questions reversed but:

Are you Straight?

[Kritter]

To me yes, you're still gay/lesbian.


The reasoning to my answer is because my ex is a herm. My ex was born with BOTH sex. Birth certificate and government document states my ex is male. When I met my ex, I met her as a female. She chose her sex as female and took on most of the female roles.  When we were together, I knew there would be a deli ma when it came to whether our relationship at the time was heteral or homo. As time went by, I concluded that what a person's body is compare to one's mind, heart, and soul is came be different. What matters is the heart and soul of the person and body is not what defines a person. In other words, even though my ex has the body of a male, she's a female; thus, in my eyes, our relationship was lesbian.

If nothing else... call it pansexual then. 

[Goman Fox]

Pansexuality is probably more fitting of a label for someone like this... almost.  If I understand it correctly, pansexuality is more of the attraction based entirely on the person, regardless of their biological sex.  Plus I don't think there are really distinctions between male and female (biological sex) or masculine and feminine (gender) to someone who is pansexual.  So you (Kritter) wouldn't really be considered pansexual, I think, because you prefer people who identify as female (probably better if they were physically female too )

Personally I think if you identify as being gay/lesbian, and are with someone of the opposite biological sex, you're not really -that- gay.  I see sexuality as a combination of physical and emotional attraction.  I could never be attracted to a woman that identifies as male because she's still a woman and I'm not physicall attracted to women.  On the other side, I couldn't be attracted to a male that identifies as female either because there would be a clash in personality.

So no, I wouldn't think that a gay person in that situation could really still identify as being gay.

[miss_s]

I followed this thread from the akpride list and frankly, it makes me super uncomfortable and a little angry. That said, I'll try to answer as respectfully as possible.

So, let me try to parse this out a little. I don't think we can even say what is "man" and what is "woman" as we learn more about our biology.There are potentially infinite ways we can be biologically sexed - just check out any research on intersexuality (as a sidenote, and meant kindly, the word "herm" is really offensive to many intersex people because it is actually been proven incorrect. From the Intersex Society website: The mythological term “hermaphrodite” implies that a person is both fully male and fully female. This is a physiologic impossibility.)

As we study the human body, we have come to realize that even biology has variation - are you only a "real man" or "real woman" if you have the chromosomes to prove it? If so, how many people know what their chromosomal makeup is?

The other part of the question feels more challenging. The people who are described in the situations sound like trans identified people. The way the situations are described, with emphasis on biology, could be read in many communities to be presumptive of surgical alteration making bodies and identities more "real" - as if trans identified people who don't have surgery are somehow less validly transgressing gender.

Why is any human the identity police for other people? I can't stand this idea of being "really gay", as though there is some way of being authentic that a committee got together to decide at the dawn of all queer time. If you say you are gay (or lesbian, or bisexual, or trans and straight, or trans and gay, or genderqueer, or queer in any way) then you are, regardless of what any one else has to say about it, regardless of who you're sleeping with, regardless of who you love. I'm not about to go around invalidating someone's identity because it makes me uncomfortable or because they present differently then I do.

Identity is a fluid thing and, though it is influenced by the people we are intimate with, it is not dependent upon them. If a person who is female bodied, born female, lesbian identified, and a virgin, is she somehow not a "real lesbian"?

I think I'm repeating myself a little here, so I'll try to sum up by simply saying we are the makers of our own identity.

[Goman Fox]

(as a sidenote, and meant kindly, the word "herm" is really offensive to many intersex people because it is actually been proven incorrect. From the Intersex Society website: The mythological term “hermaphrodite” implies that a person is both fully male and fully female. This is a physiologic impossibility.)

Real quick I just want to point out that it is unlikely that Kritter meant any offense in using the term 'herm' because that's actually what her ex identified as.  While it may be offensive to some, in this case it was actually the preferred term, much like how transsexuals usually prefer to be referred to as the gender they identify as rather than their biological sex, or even how some people may use racial slurs or other terms that many would find offensive, for themselves.

I'm glad you pointed that out though because I never knew that the term "herm" was actually offensive, although I never would have used it unless the person was a true hermaphrodite.  For the most part, I'll use whatever pronouns the person prefers... aside from cases with, say, drag queens.  I find it difficult to refer to a man as "she" or "her" if I've ever seen them as a man.

Honestly, I think that was actually a bad example, a drag queen that identifies as being female?  I see that as a man that likes to dress up and act like a woman.  I may be wrong, but it's always been my impression that in most cases, drag queens are more like men that have some sort of female persona that they like to dress up as to express that part of themselves, but are still men.  I don't think that a gay man sleeping with a drag queen would be any more unusual than a gay man sleeping with another man that, say, liked wearing leather in the bedroom.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that the whole drag queen thing is nothing more than a sexual fetish, but when it comes to sex, it's about the same level, it all comes down to what the individual prefers.  I'd say it's even on the same level as preferring guys with long hair, hairy bodies or blue eyes.

On the other hand, a man that has gone through a sex change makes the whole thing a bit hazier.  I'd probably refer to the person as "she/her" and see them as a woman in terms of sexuality, so I could not see a man that has a relationship with this woman as being gay still.  They may not be far into the realm of bisexuality where they would have a relationship with a real woman, but I don't think they're still in that area of "full homosexuality" either.  I also feel the same way with the other situations like this (lesbian with a 'tomboy', lesbian with a FtM transsexual, straight man with a MtF transsexual, and straight woman with a FtM transsexual).  With bisexuals, there's really no case at all, if you like both sexes, there's no questioning the attraction of anyone along the sex or gender line.

But, MS, you are right about identity being a personal thing, no one can label you but yourself, and that's the case with everyone.  But at the same time, people, like myself, may not wish to interact with those that identify differently than we would expect.  When a man tells me he's gay, I take that as meaning that he likes only men, physically and emotionally.  If he has sex with women on a regular basis, he's not 'gay' as far as I'm concerned.  It may sound harsh for me to intentionally avoid people like this, but I see using the terms "gay" or "lesbian" to mean anything other than being attracted to only your own sex, as being deceptive.

One thing that really irritates me is when bisexuals will use the terms gay, bisexual, and straight to label themselves, depending on their mood.  I have no problems with people that don't fit into one of those three specific examples, but if they don't, I feel they should explain it more.  Even though I don't agree with the exact wording, I'd get along better with someone that said they were "gay, but likes sex with women as well" compared to just being told they were gay and then finding out they also have sex with women.

I would never tell someone that how they identify is "wrong" because I'm a pretty firm believer in not telling people how to live their lives if they aren't hurting anyone else, but all the same, I'd rather not interact with someone that sticks strongly to an identity that I really don't believe in.

[ViewSonic]

Interesting thoughts.

Identity is a fluid thing and, though it is influenced by the people we are intimate with, it is not dependent upon them. If a person who is female bodied, born female, lesbian identified, and a virgin, is she somehow not a "real lesbian"?

Just cause she has not boned a man yet doesn't mean she is straight either. But I see your point on that.

Though if we are who we say we are. I am a Fox*looks at my body* Nope have not sprouted ears and a tail. Like Men who dress up as women and are straight (Transvestites), No matter how many tails and ears I put on. I am still not a Fox. Not even an anthropomorphic Fox.

Now moving on to the rest of your post.

I followed this thread from the akpride list and frankly, it makes me super uncomfortable and a little angry. That said, I'll try to answer as respectfully as possible.

I am very glad to hear that advertising works and you came to our lovely home on the internet.

So, let me try to parse this out a little. I don't think we can even say what is "man" and what is "woman" as we learn more about our biology.

Wow I hate to argue you on this point (and yes I understand a bit about biology) *looks down at my penis* Yep I think that makes me a Dude. *looks over at Wifes Vagina* Ya I think she is female. It takes a male and a female to make a male or female to make a child. Now when that child is geneticaly screwed up. It's called an accident of nature, or a sin agaist god. Your choice as to what to call it.

The mythological term “hermaphrodite” implies that a person is both fully male and fully female. This is a physiologic impossibility.)

Could you explain this better please?

Or are you saying that if a person is equaly male and equaly female 50/50 (best case seneriao) They have to be one or the other?

Here is a senerio for you.

Lets say there is a couple of Lesbians, Been together for years. They decide to get a sex change (become males) and are still together. Are they now Gay?

So your saying that you can call yourself "GAY" and be gay even though you sleep with women? Doesn't that make you BI?

That leads back to my "I say I am a Fox" bit.

Isn't that why we have words. To define things....?

[Wolfe Fox]

I think it doesn't matter about sexuality really. I beleve if you love someone that's  what it is and nothing else. Grant it there is gay, there is straight, there is asexual, and whatever else that is out there. But other then that its just physical attraction and the simplist way to define it is its just sex, it doesn't matter who you do it with sex is just sex...

[Eternimus]

Ok I have a few thoughts on this insane debate. It's real simple. Straight, Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian are terms quite simply there to define physical aspects of a sexual relationship. Physical being the sexual part. If you are a guy and have sex with males, you're gay. Plain and simple, cut and dry. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to justify their sexuality. If you aren't secure enough with your sexuality to admit you are gay or whatever, you shouldn't be having sex. "It's a guy that looks so feminine." or "It's a chick that looks more butch than any man on the planet" the end result is the same. If you are a guy, and have sex with a guy, then you are, in fact, gay. Or Bisexual. My wife is bisexual. She is equally attracted to men and women. I am straight, I am only attracted to woman. Fox is gay, he is only attracted to men.

Now the TYPE of man or woman you are attracted to I personally think doesn't affect your sexuality. So you're a woman, and you want your woman to be big, rough, dominating and masculine. The only way you wouldn't go for a man is because for whatever reason you don't like men. You're a guy and want your man small, whiny, pretty and feminine. You like the attributes of women, but you want a guy. You're gay. You aren't justifying being gay as "The man was so feminine..." because you're retarded. It's like a straight guy preferring blonds over brunettes. It's just the flavor of woman you like. Or man. Saying "I identify as whatever" doesn't abolish the fact you're a dude that likes the sausage.

The rules are different for people that get sex changes. They actually BELIEVE they are the other sex. And they do something about it. It you are going that far to mutilate your body so much as to become unrecognizable as what you were, then okay damn you can be the other sex. Just stop it. In some cases I genuinely can't tell. So ok fine, they are women that can't bear kids. But there are "natural" women that can't have kids too. Genetically you're a male. Physically, and mentally you're female. I really don't know anyone who asks for genetic testing before taking home a hottie from a bar. In that case, I might swing with straight, for a guy having a sex change and getting ridden by men. But the truth is you are genetically what you are. People that have sex changes I tend not to argue with them, cause I think they're insane. But whatever. You believe what you want. I certainly do.

Saying a man is attractive, fine. Doesn't mean you want to bang em. Same with saying "Oh she's pretty." Doesn't mean you are gonna jump em. You can appreciate beauty and not be sexually attracted to them. Case in point. Karis. A good friend of my wife, he is the most feminine man I have ever seen. I mean aside from him having a penis, he is a flat chested woman. There is nothing else he can do to look more female. And he's quite pretty. I'm not looking to pound him though. You can look and not be whatever sexuality. So I don't think you can think of sexuality by looks alone. I have gay friends. I have been propositioned many times. From some very pretty men. But my penis is named Secret. Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

As for the biological "we aren't just male or just female" comment, you can't possibly be serious. I am as male and masculine as possible. Big, strong, hairy, dominant, I have a penis, I like my woman younger, petite, inexperienced, and very feminine. There are no feminine aspects to me. And my wife is super feminine. There are no male aspects to her. At all. There is no "intersexuality" aside from having a male and female parent. The only reason studies come up like that is people are trying to show sexuality is genetic. So gays can have more rights. Cause if it's genetic, it can't possibly be wrong. That's all that is, so I'm not even going to waste the forum space arguing with it.

Intersex people, or whatever you want to call em, they are just like everyone else. Once again, be whatever sexuality you want to be. But don't lie about it. That's sad. I know it might be hard to distinguish, so merely say "Bisexual." Unless there is something that sways you to one side or the other.

Bottom line is this: Be whatever sexuality you are. But damn it, be PROUD of that sexuality. Don't try to soften it, change it, or justify it. You like men, be with men. You like women be with women. You're gay, be gay. Be proud of it. Lesbian, same thing. It doesn't freaking matter. But don't try to pretend the language of it doesn't matter either. We all think in language. Take Oni for example.

I can say I've known Oni longer than pretty much any one else here. When we were kids I knew he was gay. It was blatantly obvious. He insisted he was straight. Well I wasn't near as confident or arrogant as I am now, so I took him at his word. He went out of his way to be straight. Always saying how much he liked women and doing em whenever he got the chance. It didn't matter who or what. Looks didn't matter. Personality. None of it. If it had a vagina he was all for it. That was when we were older, and what tipped me off to what I already suspected. He was gay, but denying it. He calls me up out of the blue one day, and tells me to sit down cause he had something to tell me. Then he said "I woke up this morning and realized... I'm actually gay. Not just like I think a guy is cute. I'm outright no way around it gay!" my response? "...and?"

I wasn't shocked. I knew all along. He refused to admit it so he went out of his way to show he was straight. He had to share a room with me when we were about 12 years old and he lost his damn mind. He thought it was gay to have boys share a room. He was so scared of it. And that's the bigger problem. Not that people are becoming gay, that people are AFRAID of becoming gay. And bisexuality being some sort of fad for junior high and high school, even college girls. Sexuality is part of who you are, but it does not define you. And that's what people who skirt the issue of "are you gay" think. That if they are gay it somehow changes who they are. Oni was still the same guy I knew since we were little. Going on like two decades now. Nothing's changed. Except he's more ok with who he is, and not afraid of telling people. He's done stupid sh**, sure. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have been as stupid being gay earlier, or straight longer.

Like I said, it's a part of you. Not who you are explicitly. So don't pretend that the words are meaningless. I am straight. I will only sleep with women. I have seen men that are attractive. But not a physical attraction. It's like looking at an animal. A beautiful wolf in the forest, pausing to look at you in the wild. Majestic. Beautiful. But I sure as f*** am not running over and trying to bang a feral canine. Of any gender. Same thing. Just cause you think men or women are attractive, unless you want to race over there and bang em it doesn't mean you are attracted to that sex.

So stop it.

[Wakan]

I guess in its most basic sense NO you would not be gay because of the technical definitions, hence you would have to be going with the same sex not some one of technically different sex. how ever in the reality that any one can be what ever they want as long as they believe in it i guess the simple answer is wrong and there for gives way to the above paragraphs about individuality... and just remember you are unique and special, just like every one else.

[Goman Fox]

As for the biological "we aren't just male or just female" comment, you can't possibly be serious. I am as male and masculine as possible. Big, strong, hairy, dominant, I have a penis, I like my woman younger, petite, inexperienced, and very feminine. There are no feminine aspects to me. And my wife is super feminine. There are no male aspects to her. At all. There is no "intersexuality" aside from having a male and female parent. The only reason studies come up like that is people are trying to show sexuality is genetic. So gays can have more rights. Cause if it's genetic, it can't possibly be wrong. That's all that is, so I'm not even going to waste the forum space arguing with it.

I think what was meant by this wasn't that genetics define sexuality but referring to the cases where people are born with chromosome matches that aren't the typical XY for males and XX for females.  There are actually other unusual combinations of chromosomes that result in different, uh, variations? of male and female.  For example, I'd guess that Kritter's ex most likely has an XXY chromosome match, since those types of males are usually sterile (true from what I remember) and can develop breasts, or something like that.  There are also XXX, XYY and X possibilities for chromosomes as well.

If I understand correctly, that is what is generally meant as "intersexed" even though technically, a person is still male or female, just with some variations when they develop with these defects.  It's just one label to easily identify people that are like this, since there are biological differences, just like labels like gay or straight or bisexual are used to easily identify a person's general interests in partners.

[miss_s]

Real quick I just want to point out that it is unlikely that Kritter meant any offense in using the term 'herm' because that's actually what her ex identified as.  While it may be offensive to some, in this case it was actually the preferred term, much like how transsexuals usually prefer to be referred to as the gender they identify as rather than their biological sex, or even how some people may use racial slurs or other terms that many would find offensive, for themselves.

Yes, I guessed that from the phrasing, which is why I included the caveat of “meant kindly” – I think many people don’t know that phrases like “herm” or “transvestite” (a medical term that doesn’t fit a lot of people’s definitions of self) can be very offensive, depending on the individual you are communicating with. I think the policy of going with whichever pronoun someone says they prefer is the most helpful policy.

So, in considering the rest of your post: How about an example where someone has not gone through any sort of surgery, yet identifies as a gender other then the one they were assigned at birth? If I’m understanding you correctly, GFox, surgery is essential to someone’s identity being valid to you when in relation to their interaction with you? Based on the scenario you gave, if a gay identified man was having a relationship with a transgender, postoperative woman, they would then not be validly gay? What if they were 70 years old and had been out and actively only dated cisgendered (where your gender is congruent with your body appearance) men prior to that relationship?

I guess one of the challenges that I have with this conversation is the assumption of binary systems being the only possibility, both when it comes to sex and gender. I think I agree with some of what you are saying regarding identity and language. That’s part of where I was going with the idea that identities are fluid through out our lives. For instance, I’m much more comfortable with the umbrella term “queer” (and yes, I’m a thirty-something reclaiming the word – I understand there are generational barriers to use of it) as my own identity.

Part of the reason that I became more comfortable with using queer is that it doesn’t automatically assume a binary and it is encompassing of the myriad of relationships I’ve had throughout my life. As a poly-femme-queer person, I’ve loved people of all genders and all manifestations of body – therefore, although many of my relationships have been with female bodied, female identified people, by identifying as queer I can also acknowledge the queerness of my sexual relationships with gay men or the boundary pushing of being out and actively queer and married. I can acknowledge that being involved with someone whose gender manifestation fluctuates daily means that I discover new ways of attraction and love.

I think the gist of what I’m getting from your comments, GFox, is that you may believe, at least in some small part, that identity is fixed. You may also believe that people have a responsibility to be forthright about how they identify. Is that correct? So I suppose I wonder if you have considered that many individuals might be in the midst of discovering new identities for themselves – and I don’t say that to excuse people who purposefully create subterfuge around identity so that they don’t need to deal with the negative aspects of being out.

Finally, you are absolutely right – you don’t have to associate with people who you don’t choose to associate with. It sounds like you are (mostly) respectful of how people choose to identify, regardless of your personal response to their identity. That’s a good thing. 

Ok, moving along. Hermaphrodite has historically been used as a word to describe simultaneous hermaphrodism in humans, where the human has full reproductive organs that are both male and female. As studies have progressed, scientist and medical professionals have come to realize that term is incorrect when applied to the variety of body manifestations they see.

Viewsonic, in regards to your questions about intersexuality, I’m going to refer you to this link: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

WolfeFox, I’ve been a big proponent of advocating for people to just simply be sexual (in a healthy manner, of course).

I do think that self-identification can be validating and can sometimes lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others. Thing is, as is evidenced by frequent conversations like this, we’re not all operating with the same definitions…and that’s ok too, right? Language, how we use it and what it means, is ever changing.

Eternimus, you’re a grumpy puppy bear, aren’t ya? I don’t really know how to respond to some of your post, and I’ll do my best to respond to part of it.

GFox’s reply mostly addressed your comments about intersexuality, though I feel like I want to add a little. You are confusing gender (a social construct of what is “masculine” and what is “feminine”) with biology, which is where my reference to intersexuality came in. Studies about intersexuality come from 1 in 100 births where the bodies of the child differ from “standard male or female” and 1 in 1000 births where the child had received surgery to “normalize” genital appearance. These studies don’t have to do with queer identity. As a matter of fact, transgenderism doesn’t always have to do with queer identity. I introduced intersexuality to the conversation because we presume when we say “man” or “woman” we’re all talking about the same thing.

I found your personal story great. I was especially interested in this part,

Nothing's changed. Except he's (Oni's) more ok with who he is, and not afraid of telling people.

It sounds to me that a lot has changed, if he is more ok with who he is and is comfortable with coming out. See, that environment, which is created when people validate our identities, leads to a greater quality of life.

Finally, what are you telling people to stop, exactly? Cause I’m not picking up what you’re putting down. I’m completely comfortable with who I am, as are many of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and queer identified people in my life. You can’t possibly stop self discovery and a desire to learn more about how we fit in the world. If you’re uncomfortable with it, you don’t need to participate, but you can’t tell people to stop learning who they are.

Actually, I guess you can say it, we just don’t have to listen. 

[Oni]

I found your personal story great. I was especially interested in this part,
Quote from: Eternimus
Nothing's changed. Except he's (Oni's) more ok with who he is, and not afraid of telling people.


It sounds to me that a lot has changed, if he is more ok with who he is and is comfortable with coming out. See, that environment, which is created when people validate our identities, leads to a greater quality of life.

*blinks* I think I just got pulled into this conversation. *looks around at my life* What changed in my life is not that I am a flaming fag. It's more that like everybody I have aged, gained wisdom, have a family with child. I have matured. "Waking" up as it were didn't really change anything. Everybody knew I was gay before I did. So telling them I had figured it out....didn't faze them or me really. It did create a chain of events (going to leave out of this topic) that put me were I am today.


Viewsonic made an interesting point here.

Though if we are who we say we are. I am a Fox*looks at my body* Nope have not sprouted ears and a tail. Like Men who dress up as women and are straight (Transvestites), No matter how many tails and ears I put on. I am still not a Fox. Not even an anthropomorphic Fox.

Not to sound like a prude here but its kinda like that Lady Claiming to be the first Pregnant Man. You can say it all you want, and ya if you say it enough even you will believe it but that still makes you a girl.

How many more letters in the alphabet does the GLBTAZTWNSAYWD Community need? If I go into the hosipital on day and find out that really I am 80% female, Does than mean I am straight? Or am i something compleatly different that needs it's own letter and word to be tacked on to the list?

I do think people put to much focus on words, and what other people are doing. Really what does it matter who your sleeping with as long as your happy. I banged a girl for 5 years and have a child to prove it. Does that mean I am not really Gay but Bi, as my sister argues with me. Nope means for a few years of my life I had not figured out who I was yet. People are always growing and always changing. Who knows maybe (although not possible Fox keeps me up on my Cootie Shots) in 20 years I might decided I like clam diving again. Does that mean that the part of my life when I was gay was a shame. *sigh* ....

"For a Time I was Straight, Now I am Gay." I think would be the best way of saying things. Cause for a time I was straight, even when in the back of my mind I knew I liked sausage, I still dug the Cherry Pie. We use words like Gay, Straight, Male, Female, Red, Blue, Plane, Car, ect to identify things.

Though Wait. Back up A bit. I can't be gay. I have a girlfriend. Or at least we (me, Fox, and my Girlfriend) Identify that person as My girlfriend. But that can't be right. Cause she is niether a Girl or gay. Damn my luck.

Now getting back a bit more on topic here.

I know a person who identifies themselves as gay. Hell he acts very gay, but when his boyfriend is out of town, or not putting out that week, he is off banging his room mates (who happen to be female). mmmm *thinks for a minute* Dudes Bi.

No matter how much he says he is gay he is still Bi. Now there is nothing wrong with that. He wants his relationship to be with a Guy, but wants to have sex with both sexes. Still Bisexual.

People that the right to call themselves what ever they want I think, but that doesn't mean that's what they are.

Like in ViewSonic's example. I am a Furry As much as I would like to be an anthropomorphic there is just no way. Even with surgical Modifications, and wearing Cat ears, a tail, Paw Gloves, and Paw boots, or even if I dressed up in a Fursuit. I am not a cat. 

So really I think if a Guy is banging a DragQueen he is either Bi or Gay. Even if they try to pass off there relationship to the public as straight hetro couple. They are not.

Though allow me to give you this to work with. First Line is rather fitting for your argument.

La Cage Aux Folles
I am What I Am

I am what I am
I am my own special creation.
So come take a look,
Give me the hook or the ovation.
It's my world that I want to take a little pride in,
My world, and it's not a place I have to hide in.
Life's not worth a damn,
'Til you can say, "Hey world, I am what I am."
I am what I am,
I don't want praise, I don't want pity.
I bang my own drum,
Some think it's noise, I think it's pretty.
And so what, if I love each feather and each spangle,
Why not try to see things from a diff'rent angle?
Your life is a sham 'til you can shout out loud
I am what I am!
I am what I am
And what I am needs no excuses.
I deal my own deck
Sometimes the ace, sometimes the deuces.
There's one life, and there's no return and no deposit;
One life, so it's time to open up your closet.
Life's not worth a damn 'til you can say,
"Hey world, I am what I am!"

[miss_s]

Oni, in reference to your life (and btw, clarifying, I didn't bring you into the conversation, your friend did, so I hope I was respectful when I replied), would you say your quality of life is better now that you are more comfortable with who you are?

In regards to Thomas Beattie, you don't sound like a prude, but you do sound transphobic. Your argument could be rewritten this way, in reference to straight people talking about queerness:

"You can say you are gay all you want, you can say you've always been that way, you can say that it's ok to be gay, and ya if you say it enough, even you will believe it but that still makes you a <insert whatever homophobic comment here you'd like to>."

Ideas like this, language like this, is directly linked to an environment where queer people are considered less than non-queer people rather than equal to. It's also an argument that is used to validate being hateful toward other people.

So, I don't really know what "acts gay" means, cause queer people are all kinds of people with all kinds of behaviors. Though you seem really intent on creating your own identity, you also seem equally comfortable imposing identities on other people. The queer community doesn't "need" more letters added to the alphabet soup, but why do you care if more letters get added? How does it hurt you? How does it make your quality of life less than?

[miss_s]

Also, I just saw this in the newsfeed:

"AKCommunity wants to create an environment that is conducive to, and supportive of, social tolerance in which community events can be planned and executed by community members without fear of persecution for their gender, beliefs, race, or sexual preference."

And so far, this community doesn't seem very welcoming to transpeople (which would fall under gender, I believe), so I wonder how you plan on creating that environment.

Also, in the interest of disclosure, I'm not trans-identified and I do believe in creating space for all forms of expression.

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Sigh.  I take a week off and what happens?  Oni finds a stick and the nearest hornet's nest and goes to town.

I followed this thread from the akpride list and frankly, it makes me super uncomfortable and a little angry. That said, I'll try to answer as respectfully as possible.

Wow, already offended and I haven't even been involved in this discussion yet.

Also, I just saw this in the newsfeed:

"AKCommunity wants to create an environment that is conducive to, and supportive of, social tolerance in which community events can be planned and executed by community members without fear of persecution for their gender, beliefs, race, or sexual preference."

And so far, this community doesn't seem very welcoming to transpeople (which would fall under gender, I believe), so I wonder how you plan on creating that environment.

Also, in the interest of disclosure, I'm not trans-identified and I do believe in creating space for all forms of expression.

So...what you're saying is that because there are some strong opinions, loud voices, and a couple of big hairy bulls in this thread that the entire stated purpose of this web site is somehow invalidated?  How's that work, exactly?

I'm not going to participate much more in this discussion, because I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other regarding the root cause of sexuality.  But something you said just doesn't sit right with me.  I mean, you seem like a reasonably intelligent person in later posts, but in your very first post you opened your virtual mouth and:

So, let me try to parse this out a little. I don't think we can even say what is "man" and what is "woman" as we learn more about our biology.There are potentially infinite ways we can be biologically sexed - just check out any research on intersexuality (as a sidenote, and meant kindly, the word "herm" is really offensive to many intersex people because it is actually been proven incorrect. From the Intersex Society website: The mythological term “hermaphrodite” implies that a person is both fully male and fully female. This is a physiologic impossibility.)

As we study the human body, we have come to realize that even biology has variation - are you only a "real man" or "real woman" if you have the chromosomes to prove it? If so, how many people know what their chromosomal makeup is?

fell out.  Now, maybe it's because Eternimus and I are the big, loud, hairy, smelly bull males that we are that makes us like things like human sexuality to be simple.  Cut-and-dried, if you will.  It seems to me that the "science" and "research" you're referring to is either very radical or biased.  Oh, wait, you're quoting from the Intersex Society web site to support yourself here.  Biased.  What Eternimus was getting at is all this "scientific research" that they're referring to is just a way to justify being who they are to a society whose deep roots don't allow for the acceptance of "intersexed" people as being "normal."  What he's saying is that, in today's MYOB American society, you don't have to justify being who you are.  Just be who you are and stop trying to force others to accept you.

What I mean by "forced acceptance" is that loud intersexed/transgendered/whatever voices are trying to get "normal" people to stop viewing and referring to them as birth defects.  That's not likely to stop, though, and here's why:

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births

To paraphrase: 1% of all births result in a person whose physical gender differs from the currenty accepted norm.  That puts it pretty firmly into the realm of birth defects, as far as the layman is concerned.  When you consider that the "layman" in this sense is the other 99% of those births, I'd say it's a pretty clear case of majority rules.

If you have functioning male gonads (testicles that produce sperm and testosterone), you are male.
If you have functioning female gonads (ovaries that produce ova and estrogen, breasts that contain functioning mammary glands), you are female.
If you are in the 1% that doesn't fit into the above "normal" categories (barring surgery such as hysterectomy), you have a birth defect.

Don't even get me started on "the possible genetic cause of sexuality," because I'll just save myself the effort and start quoting Eternimus.