Parenting

[Oni]

I got a question for everyone. One I think has been debated many times. I would like to hear both sides of this discussion. I know that getting to hear both sides of this may be a trick for a while so I would like some of you to play devils advocate for a while.
How do you guys feel about gay parenting?
Do you think it can harm the child to not have a mother or a father, or to have two fathers, or two mothers?
Are there something’s that only a Dad can teach that a mother can not? And Visa Versa?
Do you think that the idea of gay parents can be harmful to a child?
Should there be requirements on having a child?
Should people be forced to take classes and get a license to have children?
If I have left out any important questions please feel free to add more, and discuss them.

[Rachael]

Ideally, a child should have both a father and mother figure.  There are definitely things that only a man can teach a child; same with a woman.  Maybe the "best" situation to grow up in would be with a married mother and father who love each other.  However, it is not realistic to expect every family to be like this--maybe not even natural.  After all, many marriages end due to divorce, separation, or death.

Will having a straight couple for parents may provide certain advantages, I'm sure there are experiences and points of view that one can gain being raised by gay or lesbian parents.  For example, if one's parents are prejudiced against gay people, that person may grow up prejudiced as well.  I don't know what the rate is with homosexual parents, but surely those raised by homosexual parents would be more open-minded about non-traditional parents and families.

Finally, all those arguments against gay parenting fly out the window when one considers children being raised by a single parent.  Surely the child is no more "disadvantaged" in that situation.  I know people who were raised by single parents and are doing quite well.  I'm sure that as the amount of gay couples adopting continues to increase, there will be better studies on how it affects a child growing up.

As of now, I have no problem with gay couples adopting.  I think there are not enough children who are raised by a loving couple--or even a single loving parent.  I think the most important criteria for parenthood is love and the ability and responsibility to care for a child.

[Eternimus]

Now the biggest arguement against gay/lesbian parenting is the gender of the child. Gays should not have sons, and Lesbians should not have daughters. And I tend to agree. For ages humanity has supposedly been shaped by its environment. So a boy raised by gay men has a much higher chance of turning out gay, as with a lesbian couple raising a daughter. It's the same way people raising kids in a strictly hardcore religious environment. Not many kids in that situation end up open minded. There are two extremes. A child raised by a homosexual couple will either:

1) End up homosexual themselves, since they think that's how it should go, or

2) Hate homosexuality cause they were around it so often.

Just being raised by a homosexual couple will not instantly make you open minded. About anything. It merely exposes you to the homosexual life style much earlier, making it that much more likely for them to turn out that way. In addition, those kids that grew up in prejudiced houses are far more likely to attack the kid with two daddies or two mommies. Bullies will always be around, and until the problem can get solved, which it never will be, there is no reason for children to have another reason to discriminate against other children.

As for a child being disadvantaged, probably not. With same-sex partners, or a single parent, the end result is the same. If they love the child, the child will thrive. But in a single parent, wether it be the father or mother, their decision on sexuality is not influenced in any way. They do not have the burden of being out of place. Certainly this may not be the case in places with a much higher homosexual  community population, but in most areas it is a problem. I do not think it's right to make the child carry that burden, merely from your life choice. It is as if you force certain views on the child. That homosexuality is ok, that it's perfectly natural, there's nothing wrong with it, and perhaps that's how it should be. But views like that should not be forced on a child. What is right and wrong should be. And how would you explain to that child when it's older how it got there? I know many gays who have never been with a woman, and many lesbians that have never been with a man. But you can't rightly say "When two women fall in love..." or "When two men fall in love..." because it does not work that way.

I merely think being raised in a homosexual environment would make it far more difficult for that kid to adapt to mainstream life, make it unneccessarily hard on the child in school, and forces certain view in the child's eyes that should never be forced, it should be the child's own decision when the time is right.

[Goman Fox]

In some ways I agree with David, but in others I disagree.  Most of the disagreement probably comes from my belief that being gay isn't entirely a choice.  Yes it is a choice for me to choose a man over a woman as a partner.  It's a choice for me to look at men instead of women, but I don't really choose my attractions.  I'm attracted to men, not women, and that's just how I am, it's not really a conscious choice.  Just like the type of guys I find attractive isn't really a choice, it's just what I find appealing.

Anyways, on to topic.  I don't think growing up with gay parents would make a child more likely to be gay.  There may be the possibility that they'd see it as the "normal" thing to do because of their parents, when in fact they are naturally straight, but the only way I'd see a child thinking that is the only "normal" way, is if they lived in a gay-only community.  Chances are they'll still see far more straight couples than gay couples in their childhood, so I don't see it as really affecting the child's sexual orientation.  Like I said, there's the possibility that they could have a gay relationship when they're not really attracted to the same sex, like many gay people do in getting into straight relationships to be "normal", but that's usually to please society/parental expectations.  Honestly, if a gay couple were intentionally trying to raise their child to be gay, I'd view them as bad parents.  Embrace a child how they grow and accept them for who they are, but pushing a sexual orientation on them would be very wrong.

But I could see a child growing up with gay parents growing to dislike/hate homosexuality.  It's a sad truth that children can be vicious with bullying, and when it comes to something like homosexuality, even adults could be mean to a child I'm sure.  So there is one big problem that seems likely to arise.

The argument that being raised by a gay couple would influence a child to be gay themselves really doesn't seem too valid to me.  There are plenty of people who have turned out gay that were raised by heterosexual couples.  Of course, I can't say much on that because I was only raised by my mother, not a couple.  But no sexuality was ever forced on me.  It was expected that I would be straight, but only because homosexuality isn't something people typically expect.  I think a gay couple would be the same as a straight couple (as long as they're good parents).  Again, gay couples that try to push their views/orientation on their children would be very bad parents.  Teaching tolerance and keeping an open mind to different sexualities is okay but influencing something like that isn't.

And like it was said, being raised by gay parents probably wouldn't make a child more open-minded to everything, just the issue of sexuality (and even that isn't guaranteed).  I feel I'm a very open-minded person and it wasn't because I was exposed to all these things and taught they were okay, it's because my mother didn't try to push her views on me.  She is religious, but didn't force me to be involved in a church.  She is heterosexual, but didn't try to make me be straight.

Gay, straight or single, the only thing that really matters about parents is that they love and take care of the child

[chuckhart]

As a single gay parent I can say that none of my three children have turned out gay or hating gays.  It is more difficult because there are bullies, but bullies pick on kids for a multitude of reasons, not just because someone has a gay dad.  We worked with the principle to get the bully help.  Some parents would not let their kids play with mine, there were other kids.  Birthday parties were well attended.

When my daughters needed help or guidance from a woman, my sister, my mom, or some of my friends were always around.  When my wife and I divorced, my three kids did not want to live with their straight mom.  Eight years later and my son is in high school, he begs to live with me but his mother won't let him without a court fight.  She doesn't want to give up the child support.

My oldest daughter graduated this last spring at the age of 22 with a masters degree in social work.  She gave several presentations on gay parenting in her fundamentalist private undergraduate school.  She now manages two group homes in Illinois for mentally challenged adults.  She calls me every 2-3 days for long talks.

My middle daughter will begin college this coming fall and is working two jobs full time to help pay for it.  She also plays drums in a bagpipe band, and is dating a very respectful hardworking young man her age.  She marched in two Pride Parades with me.  (It was her idea.)  We talk every week.

My son is in high school recovering from recent brain surgery.  We get together often for a few hours here or there.  We carve wood, cook, go for walks, listen to his music, eat at restaurants his mother hates (a long list), and take care of the pets his mother won't allow him to keep at her house.

[Kritter]

It's very nice hearing your side of the story since you had to experience raising children after you came out. Can I ask a personal question to you though, course you don't need to answer unless you wanted to.
       How did you came out towards your children and how old were they? Reason why I am asking is because I have a friend who is gay and have a young child and I was wondering how should any gay/lesbian parent go to their child and tell them he/she is gay? Especially when the child is very young compare to a child who is on their teens. 

[chuckhart]

I can't say I was the most sophisticated in coming out to my children.  I was under a lot of pressure from their mother whom I had just begun to divorce.  She had "hidden" them from me for a few days in her fundamentalist community in the Soldotna-Kenai area.  Mutual friends in that community actually brought me (in Seward) my kids with two hours notice.  I had to rush home from work and "de-gay" my apartment. 

I missed a couple of small things (a thin rainbow sticker on my van, and a David in Drag magnet set on my refrigerator) and my fifteen year old instantly figured things out.  She didn't speak to me for the remaining two days that I had her.  She just cried and read her teen devotional bible's section on homosexuality.  I didn't tell my 11 year old nor my 7 year old that weekend. 

Their mother was furious that I had let the oldest figure it out and insisted I not come out to the two younger ones.  I knew I wanted them to hear it from me and not overhear it from their mother's discussions with friends.  Or worse directly from their mother.

Their mother had taken it upon herself to call my mother at work one day and ask her if she knew I was gay.  She went on to say that she just couldn't keep that secret from my mother any longer.  I think she was hoping for a reaction, but good old mom just said, "Oh.  Is that all?  Well I have work to do.  Talk to you later."  SHe and my dad were stunned.  I learned then to tell everyone first if I wanted them to know, and without delay.  I had planned to be in Homer having that discussion face to face with them later that week.  Instead I got a phone message from mom that went, "We now know that which you did not want us to know for so long.  You know who told us.  Please do not let her know that you know that we know.  We are not too old to learn to accept this.  Oh, and we still love you."  Our daily phone calls stopped for three months.  We have a great relationship now.

My next visit to Soldotna was for a parent teacher conference.  My son and daughter (the two younger ones) were asked to wait in the hall.  My son's teacher, with eager support from my son's mother who was present, talked to me for 45 minutes about how important it was for me to just give up this homosexual phase and move back in with the family.  She politely said that I was just being selfish and that I would forever damage my kids if I didn't give up this damaging lifestyle.  We didn't talk about math or reading.  My kids' mother eagerly and magnanimously agreed to take me back.  I, of course, politely declined. 

My kids' mother and I walked down the hall to where Chaz and Becca were waiting.  The mother went into the restroom and I took Chaz and Becca in my arms and said I was going to tell them a truth that might hurt, but it was the truth and I wanted them to hear it from me.  I said I loved them and that would never ever change.  Then I said I was gay.  That meant I really liked men more than women and I couldn't help it.  They both immediately began crying in my arms.  Then Becca gave me a big hug.  Chaz started to hug me but his mother burst out of the restroom screaming, "You told them!" 

She calmed down to a low agitated simmer and we all agreed to go to a McDonalds with a playland to  spend a little time together before I had to go back to Seward.

At McDonalds, before we even ordered the mother started yelling that I had better call in sick and spend a couple of days with her and the kids settling things down.  (In hindsight I wish I could have found a time like that to spend with them, but she was insisting I not tell the kids, and I did not have any way of getting weekends off at my job to take the kids to Seward.)  She got to yelling and causing such a scene that I just walked to my car to leave.  She chased me into the parking lot screaming over Becca and Chaz's heads, "I'm just trying to protect my kids from a father who sticks his penis up other men's butts!"  I didn't see my kids for six more weeks until my lawyer put pressure on hers.

[Oni]

I am enjoying this topic. Hope to hear more on the matter, and am consuming knowledge, and when I have something compleate to say on the topic I will post. So please guys say more.

[Oni]

Hi ya all.
How is everyones day going? I do hope its wonderful, full of excitement and challenge. Anyway back on topic. Gay parenting. Well I myself am a gay parent. I have a wonderful almost 2 (march 3rd he will turn 2) year old son. D’mitri is his name. Smart, devilish little child, takes after his father I suppose. At anyrate. I have lots of help raising my son. My parents are a big help, Fox, and Kritter are as well. They say it takes a village to raise a child, and I am glad that I have all that support to help raise him. I love him dearly. My ex and I have Joint legal and physical custody of D’mitri. I see him on a 2,2,3 schedule that alternates every week. So week 1 I would have him Mon Tues, and Fri Sat and Sun. Week two I would have him Wed Thur. It’s very cool. Though my ex at times…well … ya… interesting person she is. Anyway. I am sure I will run into troubles with me being gay and in a relationship as he grows older. I don’ think  I will run into troubles with him directly. As he is a very smart child. Raised with love and support. We all play a part in raising him. … even his mother at times… Anyway. I do hope that he does not have troubles in school caused by my being gay. Though I will teach him good morals and guide lines. And unlike my father will not teach him to run from a fight. If the fight is right, I will teach him how to approach it properly and stand up for what he believes in.
Of course there are things that every parent does not what there child to go through. But sometimes it happens anyway. The best you can do is prepare them for it.
I am not sure how I will react if discrimation is put on my son because of my being gay. I am slowing getting to the point that I don’t care that the public knows I am gay. For a while I was worried that it would effect my chances of seeing him through the court case. Though it did not get brought up, it has been two years now, and I have been a loving and caring father supporting D’mitri in every way I can. So I don’t think that even if it did come out in court that it would effect my custody, or rights to my son. Worried about it a bit yesh. But I am finding more and more support from the GLBT community and other places that am starting to come to the conclusion that it is not going to effect things much if brought up in court.
I feel that as long as I raise D’mitri in a good and moral way, preparing him for the best and worst, guiding him, loving him, and growing with him, that he will turn out alright, and to me it wont matter if he is Gay, Strait, or anything else. Hell is dad is a furry, so I don’t think it gets much weirder than that. Hehe. … welll ok I am sure it does. But hay. Who knows the future, all you can do is work in the here and now. Raise your children the best you can, and love them no matter what.
I hope to guide D’mitri the same way my parents guided me. Open minded, thoughtful, aware, and loving. They never tought me to discrimanite, though they always joke about races, people and everything. My dad is a lot like The Father from “All in the Family” … Archie that’s his name. But not in all respects. My Dad accepted that I was gay, and so did my mom. We did go through a bit of a discussion period. But my parents love me no matter what and support me as long as I believe in what I am doing, and it is a good idea, even when they don’t agree with it.
So Raising my D’mitri the same way that they tought me I think will help him a lot.
I am a young parent, so advise and information is always welcome. Especially when its comfronting problems that I have never faced before. Like being a gay parent. I didn’t even get to experience that from the childs point of view. I did experience a split family, and .. interesting life, but came out alright…well I think I did anyway. Hehe.

Well that’s my did bit.
As always feel free to comment or ask questions.
~Oni

[chuckhart]

In Alaska being gay means absolutely nothing in child custody cases.  Nothing at all.  It won't help you and it won't hurt you.  The judge is not allowed to take it into consideration.  There was an Alaska Supreme Court case a few years ago that gave us those equal rights.  But don't let the right-wingers know, they might try to pass a constitutional amendment on that too.  Any good lawyer will be able to cite that case law for you.

On another note as a just plain parent, I found out yesterday (Wednesday) that my son's pituitary gland is not funtioning well.  It is not doing a good job of regulating hydration.  The doctor's removed a one inch diameter fibrous tumor that was on it in late December and got roughly 90-95% of the tumor.  Later today we find out if they have to go back in to try to remove more.  I would apreciate your prayers or what ever intercessory measures you practice.  Thanks
Chuck

[Oni]

Would you be able to track me down more info on that case. I would love to hear more about it.

I hope for the best for your son.

Since my Child was born with me Gay, and I have not ever hid it from him. What do you guys think about that?

[Kritter]

First I would like to say that my thoughts and prayers are to your son chuck. I hope things go well.

I think it’s good that you are not hiding your gayness from your son. But I personally think he will be confused at some point of his life when it comes to relationships. Currently this country shows that heterosexual life style is the way to be and for him to see, well, Foxie and you (Oni) contradicting what society says will be in question for him. Another thing is that both of his parents are living totally different. One parent is in a bi-racial heterosexual relationship while the other parent has a homosexual relationship. There was a point in this country that bi-racial relationships was looked down upon, but to my knowledge, not any more. It is now accepting and ok in society. I truly hope by the time D is old enough to realize about the type of relationships his parents have (especially his father) that society is showing an acceptance of the homosexual life style.

[Oni]

How should a parent react when they find out a child is gay? Do you think your parents reacted the right way? was there anything they could have done different

[chuckhart]

I think you are raising your son in a very healthy way regarding you being gay.  Don't hide it from him and he will grow up with it being normal.  If he ever gets teased about it, and he probably will.  (All kids get teased about something at one point in their life.) You can deal with it at that time.  Sometimes it is a simple discussion with your son.  Sometimes it takes a neutral third party such as a school principal. 
When I came out I instantly estranged myself from my children, in two cases for years.

Parents may be a little shocked at the news, but as parents they have an obligation to immediately let their children know they are loved no matter what, no ifs ands or buts, forever and ever amen.  Then they and say this will take some getting used to, but I will adjust.  Then the kid needs to work with them.

[Goman Fox]

Just hopefully when Oni's son gets older and into elementary school, other parents are a bit more openminded to the idea that Oni is gay and in a relationship with a guy.  I've heard older people (one of my teachers last semester for example) who have told stories how either their parents, or other parents, forbid them from having certain children as friends because of differences, be them race, religious beliefs, or whatever.  Nowadays that discrimination might be against gay parents.  Of course I don't know how bad it'll be, and it really depends on where in the country it is, so maybe Oni'll be lucky and not experience those problems.  I'm sure it'd be really hard to try to explain to small child that they can't have certain friends because those childrens' parents can't handle things that are different from what they see as "normal."