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Author Topic: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead  (Read 835 times)

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Goman Fox

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[FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« on: 2010, April 24, 08:36:30 am »
So I first heard about this like, a whiiiiile ago when Ike mentioned it and briefly went into details.  Finally I decided to look into it a bit and I think it may have refreshed my interest in Final Fantasy 8.

Don't read any further if you haven't played FF8 (in the 10+ years since it's release...) and don't want spoilers

http://squallsdead.com/

Anyways, the site holds a theory that at the end of the first disc, Squall actually dies and the rest of the game is a sort of "life-flashing-before-your-eyes" dream he has while he's dying, which, they explain, is why the game goes from more-or-less normal (for a fantasy game) to completely screwy after the first disc.

It's a short, but interesting read on the page there.  I think I might have to play FF8 again with this stuff in mind to see if maybe it catches my interest more.  I was just never pulled into the story of FF8, even after going through the entire game, but maybe keeping this in mind, the story will make more sense and be more enjoyable?  I could take this off the short list of "Final Fantasy games I don't like" lol.  ...Although they keep releasing more FF games and... well yeah, that list is growing, lol.

Offline Taylor-MadeAK

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #1 on: 2010, April 24, 10:45:25 am »
That...that actually explains a lot about that strange game.  I already plan to play through FFVIII again when my Pandora finally arrives, this will be good food for though while I'm reliving the events of a game I haven't loaded up in almost 10 years.

Hey, if you want to give it another play through and don't already have a copy, I have the PC version ISOs on my hard drive that I can burn for you if you want.
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Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #2 on: 2010, April 24, 10:52:59 am »
I was probably going to pull it up on a Playstation emulator since I'm pretty sure I already have it on my hard drive somewhere.  Plus I dunno if I'll actually get around to playing it, Persona 3 has been calling my name, and the 360 Star Ocean is too, I just haven't had time for a console game recently, lol.

Offline Ike

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #3 on: 2010, April 24, 06:01:42 pm »
Yessssssssss, converts to the cause!

I for one completely hated FFVIII's explanation of everything that happened, but with this spin it makes PERFECT SENSE. Explains why the game gets trippier and trippier, and also explains how they all just conveniently forgot that they all were at the same orphanage... You know?

Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #4 on: 2010, April 26, 08:46:22 am »
Maybe they all just all have a memory as bad as Oni's?  It's unlikely, but possible.

I think it's fun when people come up with theories about parts of games that aren't really explained in the games.  I absolutely love the site, Chrono Compendium, which has all sorts of different theories and explanations parts of the Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross/Radical Dreamers series.  It goes into things like the ethics of Lavos, if it's actually "evil" or just a large parasite acting on instinct basically.  It's a fun read.

I also remember reading something once, where a person was explaining that Spira, the world of FFX and FFX-2 is actually the same world that FF7 is set it, just farther in the past.  The only big points I really remember though was the person comparing Sin to the WEAPONs of FF7, and taking a few of Shinra's remarks in FFX-2 about energy sources or something and relating them, obviously, to the Shin-Ra company of FF7.  There was a bunch of other stuff too, including official info that wasn't released in the games (I guess there are Japanese magazines, Ultimania I guess, that go into more detail about games) I'd have to find it again.  It wasn't as convincing as the Squall Is Dead theory when I read it, but it did make some interesting connections.

I think on the same page, the person was trying to find connections between other games (other than references that can be found in most FF games) and may have made connections between the games that involved the elemental crystals and whatnot, but the FF7-FFX thing was probably the best they had.

Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #5 on: 2010, April 26, 09:15:47 am »
Okay so after searching a little, I guess I was a bit off.  The connection between FF7 and FFX-2 was actually intentional.  I guess originally the idea was just like an intentional nod toward FF7, but developed into more stuff like Shinra working with Rin on trying to use energy found in the Farplane (mako) as an energy source, they end up being unsuccessful but Shinra's descendents end up figuring it out or something.

Quote
-Kitase-Nojima interview from the Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega-

FFVII and FFX are connected?!
--Previously, with a conversation in the FFX Scenario Ultimania, you made certain inferences, and since it's been about half a year since then, is there anything new you'd like to clarify about FFX?

Kitase: That's true...... Now that FFX International is out and we're in the future, I'm in a predicament; it really isn't that hard to think of another story [set] in that world; room for expansion was left possible there without too much difficulty, don't you think? Speaking conversely, FFX received a splendid reception and made us think of adding to it.

Nojima: After FFVII was finished, we were easily able to add Zack's open[-ended role] into the International version. But, with X, there was an older story with a partly-finished world and an opening that this new one could be added to and [, in doing] so[,] complete it.

Kitase: So, you could say [in terms of] time, Nojima-san decided to designate it to act as a continuation of VII, if you follow me.

--It's a continuation of VII!!

Kitase: Well, there was a joke right there. Simply put, in VII's ending, Holy came, and the next thing you knew, it was over without closing things up, and then it was the "500 years later" [scene] in the future. There's a large margin buried there. A margin for the imagination. Nojima-san and Toriyama are going to be filling something of that with VII, though, while they're at their best and can do it.

--So, will it become a continuation of VII's story?

Nojima: I have a strong feeling that they're going to be connected.

--Huh, so VII and X ARE connected?

Nojima: Well, there's not many specifics to it. I know that what becomes of people when they die is among them; you could say that it's basically the same. Both [concepts came to] function along the same line of thought as I wrote the stories. Sometimes my thoughts just flow out like that, even though pyreflies distinctly aren't green.

--When you speak of the dead becoming [something] green, do you perhaps [mean]......?

Nojima: Yes. In my mind, pyreflies and VII's Lifestream are the same substance.

Kitase: Nojima-san's even considering making use of an idea like this -- [with] an addition to the idea of life origin -- in a sequel to FFX International. That's just a little bit of the thought that's been going into what to do with VII.

Nojima: That's right. There's something like the Lifestream [in X's world also].......

--"An addition to the idea of life origin"......does that mean he's going to revise life origin concepts or something?

Nojima: I can't say......it's a secret (laughs).

Kitase: It's a surprise with how someone from the story conducts theirself with regards to the Farplane.

As you may or may not know, at one point in Final Fantasy X-2, Shinra is running a diagnostic of the Farplane, and he remarks that the energy dwelling there -- which he calls the life force of Spira -- could provide a source of energy if extracted. Energy enough to power a city even. It was also said that Shinra would be leaving the Gullwings after the final mission of FFX-2. Further still, the Al Bhed entrepeneur Rin said that he and others of like mind were looking into researching a method of extracting the energy inside the planet, Spira.

Nojima elaborated on this in the interview in the Final Fantasy X-2 Ultimania. He said that after Shinra quit the Gullwings, he and Rin entered business together, and with Rin's financial backing, Shinra attempted using the remains of a giant machina called "Vegnagun" to extra mako from the Farplane. However, he said that Shinra's attempts would prove unsuccessful, and that his descendants would some day discover the proper means of implementing the idea.

He went on to say that some 1,000 years after the events of FFX-2, Shinra's descendants would leave Spira and travel to Gaia, and there, at some point in the future, they would successfully implement their ancestor's idea. This concept was obviously on the mind of Nojima even at the time of this interview, a full year before the Japanese release of FFX-2's, and was also something that Kitase approved, for it is Kitase himself who here hints at Shinra's attempts to extract mako from the Farplane.

Further of note are the other appearances of the concept that have been mentioned: a year after the interview with Nojima in the FFX-2 Ultimania came the release of Final Fantasy X-2: International+Last Mission, based three months after the ending of FFX-2. Here we learn that Shinra has, indeed, left the Gullwings and is now conducting research with Rin. What was the research we had been previously told they would conduct? Correct: research into the extraction of mako. Research that would lead Shinra's descendants to successfully discovering the proper means of utilizing the concept.

Finally came the publication of the FFVII Ultimania Omega in September, 2005. Here, Shinra is mentioned and it's said that he was researching a means of extracting his planet's energy, but that the results of his research couldn't be seen in X-2. It then said "Perhaps his descendants will one day found a company that supplies energy from the Planet?" Who is the company that did that? Correct: the same company that bears his name; Shin-Ra.

The concept is now undeniable. It is definitely 100% official.

An extended history lesson for those of you who are interested:

as we should all know from having played FFVII, the Shin-Ra Company began as a simple weapons developer. This is a logical expectation of the descendants of the genius, Shinra, who constantly invented various technological gadgets. The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega has slightly elaborated on the backstory of the company to explain that Shin-Ra Works -- as they were called at the time -- was instrumental in bringing an end to an international war that had lasted for years (this being the war with Wutai and whatever ruling government was in place before Shin-Ra gained power).

They discovered the means to extract energy from within the Planet, and realized that they could use it to not only produce an army of elite soldiers (a special unit that would be known as "SOLDIER") and not just to produce small orbs that provided humans with magical powers (spheres called "materia") but that they could use it to generate electricity for cities. Ironically, this is exactly what their ancestor had originally conceived for the idea.

With SOLDIER and materia, the war with Wutai was quickly brought to an end, and just as quickly, the people became dependent on Shin-Ra's materia and electricity, two services that the company would market and monopolize. In short order, the government as well would concede to Shin-Ra's authority, and -- in but a single generation -- President Shinra's company had effectively taken over the entire world.

I want to find all the info from the Ultimania books some day... in English preferably, lol.  Really interesting stuff.  From what little bits I've found about FF6 from the Ultimania books, they seem to go into a lot more detail about characters, like explaining Kefka in greater detail, more about his past and his whole mental breakdown and stuff.

Must... find... more...

Having... geek... overload...

Offline Ike

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #6 on: 2010, April 26, 10:33:05 am »
Actually, Sin is a really interesting phenomenon in and of itself if you think about it, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.

I like to think that FFVI and FFIX are connected - the existence of "Terra" (the name of the main character in FFVI, teehee) as an alternate world... And their explanation of how it came to be.

Their explanation, of course, being that a planet that was near death (the world at the end of FFVI), merging with the world of FFIX... Sounds awfully familiar? And from that same note, maybe it's just aesthetically, but the constructs from Terra that Trance (I'm thinking Zidane and Kuja at this point) look an awful lot like Espers, at least if we're taking the human form of an Esper to look like Terra does when she uses Morph. Sadly I haven't played FFIX in a minute, so I can't really expound on it more than that, but that's what my mind instantly jumped to.

I also really like reading about Kefka. The game doesn't really express how much of an insane nihilist he is, mostly because you can't consider how graphic it is in a game that is so... kiddy, that kind of doesn't give you an idea of how bad he is. If you think about it, he is probably the worst villain in the FF series - he deals serious, unfixable damage to the ENTIRE WORLD - he basically destroys the root of magic and completely re-assembles the world into a broken, barren wasteland. What other villain does that on such a large scale? He also has the BEST lines. But you kinda feel sorry for the guy - it's not his fault he's crazy.

Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #7 on: 2010, April 26, 10:49:29 am »
As if the whole thread wasn't already filled with spoilers, I'm still going to point out here that this post might contain some. :P

I dunno, I never really made a connection between FFVI and FFIX, although I never really thought of the world at the end of FFVI as dying.  It was in a pretty bad state and all, especially with Kefka basically in control of it and all, but I figured things would have improved after the end of the game, although I don't remember the ending very well.  Didn't it end with Magic completely disappearing from the world?  I mean, if Magic was a crucial part of the world, I could see that as being a sign that the planet was dying, but I'm thinking it was only the "Esper World" that was really dependent on magic.  For the most part, people in the FFVI world didn't rely much on magic.

I dunno, I just figured that with Kefka gone and magic gone, the world would have eventually returned to a more balanced state since it was his interference that screwed it up in the first place.

I really think FFIX just used a lot of references to other games for fun, lol.  The worlds Terra and Gaia, direct references to spiky-haired swordsmen that like large blades, Garland and even the elemental fiends from the first game (Lich, Kary/Marilith, Kraken and Tiamat, or whatever they were called).  I don't think there's enough of a connection. :(  FFIX is still one of my favorites in the series though, after FFVII and FFVIII it was nice to go back to a fantasy setting instead the more modern settings. :O

Offline Taylor-MadeAK

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #8 on: 2010, April 26, 04:42:29 pm »
There really isn't even a tenuous connection between FFVI and FFIX (I've played both games extensively and recently).  Terra Branford in FFVI had her name changed in the translation from Japanese to English; her Japanese name was Tina Branford (argh!  Japanase characters all borked out because of non-UTF database encoding!), which evidently is an exotic name to the Japanese but not to us Westerners.  In order to form a contrasting relationship between her name and Celes Chere (whose name was derived from the word celestial), Ted Woolsey decided to change her name to Terra, which also happens to be the official (Latin) astronomical name for the blue-green space rock we all call home.

Because the word terra directly translates to "land," it's no mystery that the FFIX developers would choose to use that as the name of the "dying" alternate world that exists alongside Gaia.  Gaia is the name of the Greek goddess of the Earth, and the word in common usage usually refers to the Earth as a single living macro-organism (see: Gaia hypothesis).  The idea in FFIX was that the denizens of the dying world of Terra wanted to rejuvinate their world at the expense of their neighboring full-of-life world, Gaia.  This was deliberately written to be a caustic commentary on what we're doing to the ecosystem on our own Terra.  This is completely unrelated to FFVI's story or world, and FFVII's world of Gaia.  The fact that a FFVI main character's English-translated name is the same as the Japanese (yes, it was called Terra in the Japanese version as well, though Terra Branford was Tina in the Japanese version of FFVI) and English names for the alternate world in FFIX is entirely coincidental.

Now that we've debunked that one, time to move on.

Kefka is my absolute favorite FF villain.  Do NOT mess with the Kefka!

Quote from: Ike
I also really like reading about Kefka. The game doesn't really express how much of an insane nihilist he is, mostly because you can't consider how graphic it is in a game that is so... kiddy, that kind of doesn't give you an idea of how bad he is. If you think about it, he is probably the worst villain in the FF series - he deals serious, unfixable damage to the ENTIRE WORLD - he basically destroys the root of magic and completely re-assembles the world into a broken, barren wasteland. What other villain does that on such a large scale? He also has the BEST lines. But you kinda feel sorry for the guy - it's not his fault he's crazy.

I respectfully disagree.  Yes, he completely wrecked the face of the world when he mucked with the Goddess Statues, but you've left out a lot of other significant events that did a damn good job of communicating what a truly insane and sadistic bastard he was:

He gratuitously poisoned all of the inhabitants of Doma.  Men, women, children...he didn't care.  What was absolutely sadistic about it was that he didn't have to do it!  The Empire's army (under the command of General Leo) already had the situation under control!  General Leo even told him that there was no reason whatsoever to poison the water supply of the castle/city...so of course Kefka had to go and do it.  Why?  Because he's batshit loco crazy!

The fate of Emperor Gestahl.  Do I really need to elaborate?  Kefka thoroughly manipulated Emperor Gestahl into the chain of events that led to giving Kefka access to the Goddess Statues.  When they got there, Gestahl had no real idea what he was going to do next...he just sort of stood there and admired them.  Kefka didn't even hesitate, he knew exactly how those things work, and didn't even think twice about using their power to obliterate Gestahl.  Why?  Because he's insane and now he has power!  Bad combination, that.

Wrecking the World of Balance.  Once he had access to the statues, do you think Kefka could leave well enough alone?  Hell, no!  "Hummm...what happens if we move the Statues out of their perfect triangle of balance...?  Oh, hey!  We just completely rearranged the face of the Earth!  Suh-weet!"  Why?  Because he makes Johnny Depp's "Mad Hatter" look cool and collected!

The Light of Judgment.  Throwing the world out-of-balance and completely moving the continents around weren't enough.  Heck, that didn't even destroy all or even most of the towns and cities in the game.  Have you noticed, while flying the Blackjack around the World of Ruin, that the further away from Kefka's tower you get, the more green and verdant the land under you becomes?  That's because Kefka spent the three years that Celes was comatose blasting the area immediately surrounding his tower with the Light of Judgment cannon (or spell, or whatever, it's never really explained how that worked)...just for fun.  Why?  Well...you know.

I can go on and on (like how he deliberately offended the Espers, or his insane babbling during the final battle), but I think those examples are plenty.
« Last Edit: 2010, April 26, 06:16:30 pm by Taylor-MadeAK »
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Offline Oni

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #9 on: 2010, April 27, 11:12:07 am »
*hands out gamer geek awards to all of you*
except for Fox he gets a Gaymer geek award.
Glad to be of Service.


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Offline Taylor-MadeAK

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #10 on: 2010, April 27, 01:24:13 pm »
How's this for gamer geek?  I beat FFVI Advance last night.

Again.

For the second time this year.

My level 67ish characters made Kefka their little bish.  Lol he wasn't even able to kill off the first party!
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Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #11 on: 2010, April 27, 02:07:35 pm »
I still need to get FFVI Advance one day.  I've only ever beaten FF6 twice before. :(  Although one time was actually a modified version of the ROM that was supposed to be harder (it kinda was actually), so I've only beaten the actual game once, lol.

Offline Ike

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #12 on: 2010, April 28, 08:35:44 pm »
I never said they canonically connected, I said I liked to think they were.

Also, considering how few people are left alive at the end of FFVI, it is perfectly reasonable to assume it could've gone either way - Kefka torches whole towns, and so they make it look pretty grim. Also, Kefka didn't just f*** with magic, he fucked with natural order - a lot of places in the FFVI world became barren and uninhabitable, at least by most plant and animal life.

And I'm not saying the game doesn't make Kefka look like an awesome, sadistic person - but the actual impact in-game is sort of lessened because you don't actually see some of it happen for real, and because the game doesn't really have Kefka kill anyone you're connected to. I sorta wish they had given us an image of Kefka before his fucked up magic experiments, though - I would've loved to see what sort of person he was prior to becoming an insane, sadistic nihilist capable of destroying whole towns and cities and such just on a whim.

Goman Fox

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #13 on: 2010, April 28, 09:58:21 pm »
I really think FFVI should have gotten the massive extension that FFVII has been getting (and to a lesser extent, games like FFIV).  They added on to FF4 with games on the Wii, I think they could do lots to FF6 in the same way.  There's plenty of ways they could extend the story.

They could go into details about what happens to Terra after the end of the game, the world has to be different for a Half-Esper after magic basically disappears, right?

Personally I would love to see more background stories of characters.  I'm sure they could come up with plenty of fun scenarios involving the different characters.  They could extend Shadow's background further than they did in the game, they could have a scenario involving Strago when he was younger, hunting for the... Hidon was it?  They could extend on the relationship between Edgar and Sabin before and during their father's death, or go into more detail about the Locke/Rachel or Setzer/Daryl relationships.  I mean, the little, sometimes optional, bits in the game did a pretty good job of it I think, but I love FF6 and would love to see more, lol.

Although the best, I think, would be if they made a full game (rather than short scenario) where the main character is Kefka before his whole insanity thing.  It would be really interesting to be able to connect with the best and baddest villain in the Final Fantasy series and even possible feel bad for him, lol.  Or at the very least, be able to follow his path into madness.

But instead we get a bunch of games based off Final Fantasy 7.  Who cares about Vincent shooting people up or the story of the SOLDIER Cloud thought he was?  lol  (Actually, even though I prefer FFVI over FFVII, I still find that stuff interesting too :P)  It makes me kinda sad that FF6 seems to get so neglected when most people I know that are fans of the Final Fantasy series will admit that FF6 is their favorite. :O

Offline Taylor-MadeAK

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Re: [FFVIII] Squall's Dead
« Reply #14 on: 2010, April 28, 10:24:45 pm »
I never said they canonically connected, I said I liked to think they were.

Also, considering how few people are left alive at the end of FFVI, it is perfectly reasonable to assume it could've gone either way - Kefka torches whole towns, and so they make it look pretty grim. Also, Kefka didn't just F*** with magic, he fucked with natural order - a lot of places in the FFVI world became barren and uninhabitable, at least by most plant and animal life.

When was the last time you watched the ending of FFVI?  I watched it just the other night when I beat it, and there are a few points you seem to have missed.  There weren't all that few people left at the end of the game.  There were whole towns that were downright out of reach of Kefka's tower and his Light of Judgment (in fact, during the end scene with him, the Light of Judgment wasn't even able to reach a town...he just burned it across some water and a few uninhabited islands), therefore there were plenty of people left to begin rebuilding, repopulating, and generally just healing the world.

Kefka didn't mess with the natural order of the world, he messed with magic.  Need proof of this?  You defeat Kefka and suddenly the Esper crystals start fading out of your grasp.  Terra finds herself in trouble, as well, because her Esper half is utterly dependent upon the existence of magic.  No more magic, no more Morphed Terra.  The only way she can remain in the world of FFVI is if her human half is strong enough to take full control...which of course it is.

The world was quite capable of healing itself, once Kefka was gone.  Magic wasn't any more missed than it was after the War of the Magi.  That point was driven home by the clouds clearing to reveal the Blackjack flying around over a green and blue world during the end credits.  Barren and uninhabitable?  Not in the slightest.

Here, refresh your memory:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQXFCO26AKs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQXFCO26AKs</a>

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"A more elegant weapon from a more civilized time...."