Heaven

[Rachael]

My last topic wasn't too good, so I thought I'd bring up something that requires a bit more thought.

What do you think are God's "requirements" for going to Heaven?  Does one have to simply be a good person, or must one have some faith as well?  How strict or lenient is God when it comes to people who have tried their best, but just don't have a lot of faith?

I find it hard to believe that God would turn someone away from Heaven just because he or she doesn't believe in Jesus.

[Oni]

Meow,
   For now it apears that this forum isn't to big yet. I would like to get everyone using it. But to your questions witch is a very good one, one I think will be answered slightly differently by everyone.

I agree with you and do find it hard to believe that God would turn some one away just cause lack of faith. I don't think god is a careless creature.
Well it is said that Jesus died for everyones sins therefore we are all forgiven and should be able to get into heaven, by that logic. Though in revolations it is said that only a few thousand people will get into the gates of heaven and no one knows what few thousand that is. I think that God simply wants us to learn and love. "The greatest thing you could ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return." Simple quote and I think it kinda sums up just about everything. Though i am one of those people as well whom believe in more than one live. I think that We continue to come back down to Earth after we die to correct the Karma that we have made in the first life, and learn more, continue to learn untill we have reached our own personal form of compleate enlightenment and are ready for the 2nd life, a seperate exastance from this one that you could say God has set up for those that are ready to pass on from this one. You could compare this life as being elementry school, and the 2nd that I talk of as High School. I think it will be a very long time before people are ready and stop being reborn before they finaly get to stay in heaven. Though I do think that when you die you go to a "place" (some call it heaven) for a while before you come back down to earth.
To answer your question in more of a christian view, I think that faith helps. but is not an absolute requirement. It is a sin to break the law of man, but if the law of man is counter productive then I think it's ok to break it and god would understand. I dont think god askes anything more than for people to try there best. For each person what they can give or what there best is, is different, and there for is taken into account when the time comes.
My personal views are kinda unique compared to just about any ones way of thinking. I referense God in my teachings and my lesons, but I don't view him the same way you do. I like to say that I teach in a way you can understand and in a way you would accept. Kinda like how God does. So if I am talking to you, I know your views on god, and there for teach you from those views, but if I am speaking to some one else about god I use those.

[Rachael]

Makes sense.  I agree with you for the most part, although I'm still cynical about reincarnation.  That's not to say I'm not open to the idea, though.

I've always looked at karma as something that happens in one's life, as a natural result of one's actions.  I think the universe is designed so that if you do something wrong, it's going to come back at you in one way or another.  Same if you do something good.  That's because the things we consider "right" and "wrong" are things that will have "good" and "bad" consequences, respectively.  Maybe the consequences won't be "good" or "bad in the short run, but they will in the long run.

You can tell that "Ethics" course I took next semester really hit home. :p

[Oni]

Since the individuel decides what is right and or wrong, one could argue that karma by your thinking is only a person punishing or rewarding your self.

[Rachael]

Yeah, you could defnitely argue that.  I've heard debates in my ethics class about whether or not ethics simply exist for one's own selfish ends.  Our instructor's conclusion was no, because sometimes people do things that could no way benefit them, just because somebody else needs it.  For instance, someone may not believe in Heaven, but might still give his or her life for a complete stranger. 

But to me, it doesn't really matter why someone does the right thing.  If they do it, that's all that matters to me.  The only exception is if it leads to something worse happening, and that's only if they intended for it to happen.

[London_Fox]

Wouldn't it be something if this were heaven?  What I don't understand is the desire that people want to be there.  Sometimes yearning to be there rather than here and in turn making themselves and the passer-byers in their lives miserable.  Depending on which faith you practice/believe in, there is a different version of heaven.  From being a warrior wonderland to just having the physical closeness of a_god_01 to a very nebulous description of heaven or the terribly drab idea that everything you do is to just worship the big man himself because he has an image problem and you're just to grateful so you feed his esteem issues because you are truly a good friend. 

Last time I had a serious thought about a heaven it wasn't pearly gates or cloudy skies.  Most deranged about it is it was a teaching hospital.  I never felt so inferior and humbled in my life.  Robert Wood Johnson University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey was the very place I speak of.  They gave me the feeling of knowing everything, were terribly kind (a different form of niceness unlike the rest of Jersey), clean and white without the clouds, people being birthed and dying.  heh Strange.

[Kritter]

Hmmm, well to touch base on some things all three of you guys and gal mentioned from what how I was raised is this.

When it comes to heaven, the ONLY people that are allowed to live in heaven are the ones who believes in God/Lord Jesus Christ. So being a nice girl/guy all your life without believing in God  will not be a good enough to Him. In fact, she/he will go straight to hell. There is only heaven and hell. No limbo, no middle ground.

For the Christian faith, they are to be the "salt of the earth". And for any real christian, their lives here in this earth should be the hardest, worstest, and- in some cases- most painful life ever. Why because the earth is mostly controled by the devil and he will throw anything at him/her to lose faith and go to hell. So in speaking, earth is hell for the true Christians. I only mention this towards the "true christains" because there are many people who say they are, but really not.

Well, I hope i made sense  there. Again, the things I mentioned are from what I learned at church.

[Oni]

Heaven,

        Heaven is what you want it to be. And so for each person it is something different, weather it’s white fluffy clouds, or the halls of Valhalla. I feel that each person goes to the place the feel they need to. For some it is simply coming back and learning more.  I don’t feel that there is one right heaven, or one wrong heaven.

[Rev. Johnathan Jones]

Hey all,

as a reverend there is a standard reply to this question. That is, if you love God/Jesus, confess your sins and try to live according to god's rules- then your in.

But, in reality, I think it is useless to worry about heaven. I think we should be focusing on how we live now. Live good, love wastefully, and be the best you can.

The reason I say that is because- none of us REALLY know if there is a heaven/hell/afterlife. We hope there is- but I think we will find out one day if there is or isn't and if we got in or not. The day we die will be the day of illumination.

In the meantime- live good, help others, dream big dreams, smile, love, enjoy.

[Goman Fox]

Yes Cat, I'm posting here, be happy.  First off, let me say that I don't really believe in a Heaven or Hell.  I don't really believe in God either.  I'm not really the type of person who can believe something based purely on faith, so religions that include deities don't really work for me.  I don't think they're -wrong-, I just don't have enough proof to believe in them.

But Rachael's original comment made me think of something I saw in one of the regular webcomics I read.  It's called Jack and is a furry webcomic that, I think, has some interesting views on Heaven, Hell and all that stuff.  Anyways, in one strip, Jack is talking to an angel, Farrago, about the requirements of getting into Heaven.  The dialogue goes like this:

Jack:  "All Right.  How does one get into Heaven then?"
Farrago:  "To get to Heaven, in life, you had to have an unwavering faith in God."
Jack:  "Why is that important?"
Farrago:  "Jack...?  If you had guests in your house, you'd kind of want them to believe you existed, wouldn't you?"

I dunno, those aren't really my beliefs, but I figured it would make people think, or maybe just find it amusing.  I thought it was anyways.  I love the whole Jack webcomic, I think it has a great story and such.  I would post a link, but it isn't appropriate for all ages, since it deals with some pretty mature topics.

But if I had to choose a "type" of Heaven/Hell to believe in, it would probably be the Jack version, it seems to be a bit "nicer" than some of the other versions I've heard of.  Heaven is "timeless", so your loved ones are already in Heaven when you get there.  Hell isn't some eternal damnation, there's actually ways out of it.  It seems to make more sense that if God were really this loving being that people say, that there would be a way out of Hell.  Basically in the Jack world, one must realize their sins from life and repent for them.  Then they are reborn on Earth and are given a chance to get into Heaven again.  That way makes a lot more sense to me than some religious groups I've seen who pretty much say "God loves you, until you screw up once, then it's Hell forever."  I'm sure Kritter probably knows more about those types of groups than I do though.

I dunno, those are just my thoughts on it.

[Kritter]

I understand what you meant Foxie and I know that you are not the only person who thinks like that.

My beliefs were in a stand still- kinda is, but it's slowly moving- when I first came out. What I am now goes against the religion I was raised into; thus, I had to rethink on a lot of things. I don't claim to be Pentecostal anymore; however, I do follow the basic Christian beliefs. There are some things that is hard to get rid of, but over time I am sure it won't be. 

[Rachael]

I always felt like no one, no matter how evil they were, deserved eternal damnation, because everyone has some good in them.  And why would God, a perfect Being, be more loving and forgiving than me, an imperfect human being?  I know that sounds presumptuous of me, but it gives me comfort when I worry that me or someone I love is going to Hell.

I don't think God is too lax.  I do believe the wicked need to be punished, which is why I have concluded that Hell does exist--it's just not eternal.  I guess that comes with my being raised Catholic: Hell is just really more like Purgatory.  Of course, that's NOT what Catholics believe--Hell and Purgatory are different places--and I've realized that while I call myself a Catholic because I attend a Catholic church, most people would not consider me one.  I used to get angry when people said I wasn't a Catholic, but it doesn't bother me so much anymore.

[Eternimus]

For many years now I have had a problem with the christian versions of heaven and hell. And what essentially made me turn away from the Christian faith completely was a pastor, one I talked to trying to get some comfort when my best friend, I mean like this guy was my brother, Remy was killed by a hit and run. This was years ago. He was epilleptic and the severe trauma to his head didn't kill him right away, just sent him into convulsions. When the authorities got there they said if he'd have gotten help he would have survived, and over a bit of time been back to normal. I went to this pastor, who shall remain nameless for now, and asked him how God could allow Remy to die like that? I mean Remy had a drink every now and then, he'd stopped smoking, and all he was doing was crossing the street to get to work. Something he had done a thosand times before. This asshole plows into him and races off. Remy was a saint. He was nice to everyone, he did the toys for tots thing all the time, this man did not have single skeleton in his closet. The pastor said it was an act of Satan. Then he told me to take my time mourning Remy, cause because he hadn't given himself over to God, he was doomed to hell. I don't believe it's right for merely beliving in God to get you into heaven. I mean, according to the bible, if you get baptised, and then are the scum of the earth, and just before you die you pray to forgiveness, you're forgiven and get into heaven. But Remy isn't going because he didn't get baptised. And Remy was a much better man than I am. But he was also a warrior. He constantly trained himself to become quicker, stronger, more skilled, whatever. That's why I like Asatru. See it has a heaven and hell. Niflheim, is the Asatru hell. A bleak, desolate land of ice. And Valhalla is the home for slain heroes. Or, you go to Freya's hall. That's where you go if you weren't exactly a hero, but still a good person. So wether Remy was considered a hero or not, he was a good person. He's resting peacefully one way or the other. And that's made his death easier to deal with. If less good people and more wicked ones were killed, we wouldn't need a heaven. We'd already be there.

[Rachael]

Wow, what a jerk!  It really ****** me off when people say that about someone who's JUST DIED to that person's friend!  I think that was really rude and tasteless--and really sick--of that pastor to say that.  HE doesn't know how God's going to judge Remy, is he?  I am so disgusted by his behavior.

Unfortunately, there are many Christians like that, and it makes me sick.  I stick with Christianity because I believe it is a religion of love and peace, but I think it's cool if you believe in Asatru.  At least you don't judge people who have different religions.

[Eternimus]

Nope. That's a big thing in Asatru. We don't discriminate for any reason whatsoever. Gender, sex, race, religion, whatever. You are who you are, I am who I am, and that's that.